2.4 TDDI ticking when warm + pump codes

[HJvL]

Hi all

Have a 55 plate T350 with the 2.4 90 TDDI lump. Bought it as a non runner with a dead pump on its second engine (no idea on miles, receipt just says "2.4 engine") and had a local garage put a brand new pump in, they got it started and handed it over saying it was all good to go. I had it laid up for a few weeks doing a bunch of welding, then for months putting some camper conversion bits in (with a full size double bed that winches into the roof so I can still use it as a van).

Now that I've been putting some miles on it I noticed a few problems:
1. While it starts and runs smoothly, with good (for a transit) fuel economy, it's dog slow. Second half of the pedal travel does nothing, 30mph up Telegraph Hill from Exeter towards Torquay (15%) with my foot flat to the floor. I knew a 90hp shed would be slow but that doesn't feel right.
2. It's quiet on startup, but as the engine warms up there's a ticking noise that sounds like timing or top end - no change on and off power. Tried STP oil additive hoping it was sticky after being laid up for 18 months after the pump blew up but no change.
3. While there's no engine warning light, I ran the codes on Forscan and got a P0149 timing error and associated "reduced fuelling mode". Annoyed the garage didn't scan after installing the pump and tell me about this...
4. Fuel round the injectors after driving for a while, I'm told it's probably the leak-off pipes.

Had a different mechanic take a look, he thinks it could be slack in the timing chain causing the pump timing to creep and throw an error. Some folks say it could be the injectors, but I'd expect the sound to change when coasting, and it sounds the same. Some folks also say it could be an issue with the cams or ladder. I'm planning to remove the valve cover and take a look underneath and check the cams, lifters etc, and replace the injector seals at the same time. If it still makes noise I'll replace the timing chain too.

Is there anything else I should check at the same time, or replace while I'm doing those jobs? Anything else that could be making the noise and causing the error codes and limp mode?

Thank you!

[knobby1]

Hi all

Have a 55 plate T350 with the 2.4 90 TDDI lump. Bought it as a non runner with a dead pump on its second engine (no idea on miles, receipt just says "2.4 engine") and had a local garage put a brand new pump in, they got it started and handed it over saying it was all good to go. I had it laid up for a few weeks doing a bunch of welding, then for months putting some camper conversion bits in (with a full size double bed that winches into the roof so I can still use it as a van).

Now that I've been putting some miles on it I noticed a few problems:
1. While it starts and runs smoothly, with good (for a transit) fuel economy, it's dog slow. Second half of the pedal travel does nothing, 30mph up Telegraph Hill from Exeter towards Torquay (15%) with my foot flat to the floor. I knew a 90hp shed would be slow but that doesn't feel right.
2. It's quiet on startup, but as the engine warms up there's a ticking noise that sounds like timing or top end - no change on and off power. Tried STP oil additive hoping it was sticky after being laid up for 18 months after the pump blew up but no change.
3. While there's no engine warning light, I ran the codes on Forscan and got a P0149 timing error and associated "reduced fuelling mode". Annoyed the garage didn't scan after installing the pump and tell me about this...
4. Fuel round the injectors after driving for a while, I'm told it's probably the leak-off pipes.

Had a different mechanic take a look, he thinks it could be slack in the timing chain causing the pump timing to creep and throw an error. Some folks say it could be the injectors, but I'd expect the sound to change when coasting, and it sounds the same. Some folks also say it could be an issue with the cams or ladder. I'm planning to remove the valve cover and take a look underneath and check the cams, lifters etc, and replace the injector seals at the same time. If it still makes noise I'll replace the timing chain too.

Is there anything else I should check at the same time, or replace while I'm doing those jobs? Anything else that could be making the noise and causing the error codes and limp mode?

Thank you!

P0149 points to a failing pump timing solenoid...fairly common on the TDDi's. Timing chain tensioners can an do play up, normally there's a rattle at cold start that goes away after a few seconds when the oil pressure comes up.

Lord Knobrot

[HJvL]

Thanks, pump was brand new, are solenoid failures out of the box common? Engine sounds healthy on cold starts, the noise only starts as it warms up. Any way to check the tensioner without taking the front off?

[richardstubbs]

If it's had a new pump, and it was really a new or properly reconditioned pump not a second-hand one, then the pump is probably OK. It says it's got a timing error so the most likely cause in this case is exactly that, that the timing is wrong. It sounds as though it has never run right since you had it back, so I reckon there's a good chance that the garage has timed the pump wrong. It's easy to do if you're doing it through the inspection cover. I've done it myself and the symptoms are exactly as you describe; sluggish and won't pull up hills, with a P0149 error, but otherwise starts and runs fine. If it's the solenoid it'll knock like hell - is it? Best thing is to check the timing, it's not too hard to do, then go from there.

Fuel round the injectors is probably just that the injection pipe unions need tightening. Ford recommend new pipes every time but nobody ever does that. If you reuse them after a pump change they need to be done up really tight, possibly more than once, because they never seat quite the same as the first time. There are flats on the injectors for a spanner - hold them there and tighten them up on top, they're probably a bit loose.

If the chain is loose there will be a noticeable rattle from a cold start for a few seconds before the oil pressure comes up, it's pretty obviously a chain noise.

Sorry, no real idea on the ticking - it's kind of impossible to diagnose a noise without hearing it. Could be a tappet (but more likely from cold), could be an injector seal, could be the exhaust manifold gasket, could be a worn rocker or even a piston ring (less likely). Also might be related to the timing, so do that first I reckon.

[HJvL]

Thanks! I specifically asked for a brand new pump from Ford (despite the cost, ouch) because I've heard it's not worth rolling the dice on a recon, so I'm beginning to suspect it was an apprentice job and that whoever did the job checked that it ran and just didn't know how it's supposed to sound and drive. No knocking, other than the tick it sounds just like my dad's 125 TDDI.

Is it possible to check the timing without taking the front off?

[knobby1]

Is it possible to check the timing without taking the front off?

No.

However, normally if the cam timing is out, it will start and run for a few seconds, then die. The crank sensor is a reference to the PCM & fuel pump EDC.

Lord Knobrot

[richardstubbs]

Is it possible to check the timing without taking the front off?

It is on the FWD, there's a little round inspection cover in the timing cover which you can get to with minimal dismantling - there's a tool with three pegs to take it off, it just twists. Pretty sure that the RWD is the same. You also need to take the crank sensor out and set the engine to the right position and lock it there with the special tool. It's 50 degrees BTDC I think, but the way to do it is to turn the engine until it looks about right on the pump sprocket (it'll be pretty close or it wouldn't go at all, or like Lord Knobrot says it would start and stop) and then move the engine one way and the other until the tool drops in the hole in the flywheel. Then see if the tool for the pump sprocket will go in the right place.

I'd put money on it (if I were a betting man) missing and going to the left of the hole. It'll definitely run like that (mine did and I would never have known it was wrong if it hadn't been going better before the pump failed, it just felt slow). In that case you just loosen the three little bolts and turn the pump to the right place. I've got the proper (Chinese) timing tools and they are cheap; much easier than messing around with drill bits and stuff.

But I'd take it back to the the people who did it wrong and get them to do it right. You've paid for it, and it's them who messed it up. If they think it's the pump, get them to take it off and send it back to Ford. But I bet it isn't.

[knobby1]

Is it possible to check the timing without taking the front off?

It is on the FWD, there's a little round inspection cover in the timing cover which you can get to with minimal dismantling - there's a tool with three pegs to take it off, it just twists. Pretty sure that the RWD is the same. You also need to take the crank sensor out and set the engine to the right position and lock it there with the special tool. It's 50 degrees BTDC I think, but the way to do it is to turn the engine until it looks about right on the pump sprocket (it'll be pretty close or it wouldn't go at all, or like Lord Knobrot says it would start and stop) and then move the engine one way and the other until the tool drops in the hole in the flywheel. Then see if the tool for the pump sprocket will go in the right place.

This will allow you to check the pump timing, but not allow you to check the cam timing. Pump timing may be correct but the cam timing could be out, all three need to be checked together. Rocker cover and timing cover need to be removed to check them all properly.

Lord Knobrot

[richardstubbs]

That's true; when I did it I knew that I'd only ballsed up the pump timing so it was OK. But good call - the cam timing could be out - who knows what the garage did.

Also, I thought after I wrote the above - if it was mine, and I was going to use it as a camper, I'd take the timing cover off anyway to check the chain, guides and tensioner. You don't want the chain slipping when you're in Bordeaux or somewhere. In fact, that's precisely what I did when I got mine, before I converted it to a camper. The tensioner was knackered, so I was glad I did.

[HJvL]

Thanks for all the comments! RE taking it back to the garage, if I'd noticed the issue within a few weeks or months I would have, but it's been almost a year now, so I'd fully expect them to tell me to jog on. I needed to pull everything to bits anyway because I need to replace all the coolant hoses after the oil cooler failed, so I might as well do it all at once (also found that the rad is bulging, fan coupling is sticky and there's an aux belt idler with a bad bearing so my shopping list is growing...)

Anyway, update time. I finally got a chance to pull the front off the van and take a look under the timing cover. This is what I found:

1. Timing chain has some surface rust and the tensioner looks pretty far extended. Moulding for the upper guide has an 01 date stamp on it, so the replacement engine is even older than the van. New chain time? (pic: https://i.imgur.com/De5b9Rg.jpg)

2. With the pins installed in the crank timing holes, the pump gear lines up with the index hole on the block, but there seems to be a plate with a slot behind that's off by a couple of degrees and stopping me from inserting a pin here too. Is this my issue? (pic: https://i.imgur.com/hib1eNY.jpg)

3. I can't get the crank position sensor out of the block, the bolt has some resistance but I put about a dozen turns on it and it's just spinning free. Access is extremely difficult because it's stuffed behind the turbo and manifold. Any suggestions? (pic: https://i.imgur.com/Qd8JvdU.jpg)

Anything else I should be replacing while I've got the thing to bits? Thanks!

[richardstubbs]

Yes, I see what you mean about the garage. You've nearly done the job now anyway!

1) That's the later tensioner, so it's definitely been changed at some point. But now the front's off it's probably daft to put it together without changing the chain and blades at least. It's easy enough.
2) The plate with the slot in it is the pump flange, and that's the bit which needs to line up with the hole in the block. So yes, I reckon that's your problem - you loosen the sprocket bolts and turn the pump with the big nut until the pin goes in. But because you haven't managed to get the crank sensor out it's not even certain that the engine is in the right position to start with, so it could be more out than this.
3) Sorry, can't help with that, looks pretty awkward. The FWD is equally, although differently, awkward to get at but mine came out fine. You might need to get a new sensor (Ford say you have to although I never did) in case you trash it. Could be stripped I suppose which will be a pain.

Good luck.

[HJvL]

After much worrying about the crank sensor, I gave it some persuasion with a screwdriver and it popped right out with zero drama. With the cams pinned I stuck a boroscope inside the hole, and...



It's out by half a tooth! All squared up now, just waiting for the new chain kit to arrive so I can put it all back together again. Fingers crossed all my issues are fixed...

[richardstubbs]

Nice one, it'll be fixed in no time. I reckon the garage never pinned the crank because they couldn't get the sensor out.

[HJvL]

It just doesn't end... Started knocking when hot again. Same codes. Runs better, probably due to the actual physical timing now being correct.

It didn't throw the codes immediately. Drove fine for 50 miles or so, then I started suspecting I could hear something, now 20 miles later it's as loud as it was before. As well as the pump timing, Forscan suggests:

"Air in the fuel system
Blocked kinked or crushed fuel lines
Outlet fuel connector pressure control valve seized or blocked.
Blocked external filter
CPS circuit fault
FIP supply voltage
CPS"

Considering how it came on slowly, I'm thinking either the pump gear has walked out of spec (I torqued it to spec but the Haynes manual didn't mention threadlock - should I have used threadlock?), or a fuel supply issue. Filter is new and a reputable brand.

What else should I check?

[knobby1]

Considering how it came on slowly, I'm thinking either the pump gear has walked out of spec (I torqued it to spec but the Haynes manual didn't mention threadlock - should I have used threadlock?), or a fuel supply issue. Filter is new and a reputable brand.

What else should I check?

Aren't the fuel pump sprockets bolted to a flange which is "keyed" to the pump shaft..?? Can't see them "walking" anywhere unless the chain has jumped teeth....then it would only run for a few seconds and stop. Timing solenoid ok..??

What "actual" fault codes are you getting..??

Lord Knobrot