Mk6 will not crank after trying to jump start

[clydebuilt]

Good evening hive mind

First technical post here so apologies if I miss any information. Hopefully my shared Dropbox links work!

I have a 2005 2.0 diesel transit, which has sat on the drive for a few weeks (it's a Dethleffs motorhome conversion). I tried starting it on Saturday and the battery was hardly turning over the starter so I attached some jump leads, started up the other car, and turned the key in the van's ignition. The dash lights came on as normal at position two but there was no cranking of the starter.

The immobiliser light on the dash is flashing slowly and goes out when the key is turned. I've shared a video of the dash when I turn the key: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/4o494hwn2f3exh0a76j9s/20240228_163948.mp4?rlkey=it7obhck3cgfi9unltzrr82po&dl=0

The radio works when the key is in position one.

I've charged both batteries under the driver's seat. It appears that the batteries are connected in parallel to use as a leisure battery. (Is there a way to test this?) https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/7fxgec8o9qon42wspweam/20240228_164730.jpg?rlkey=8isix8yfd52f9796vfu2lqxyp&dl=0. Both batteries are now showing 12.4v but I have the same symptom of no crank when turning the key.

I've verified continuity through fuses 106, 107, and 111 in the engine compartment fusebox, based on the superb screen captures posted here: https://fordtransit.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=71739

I'm waiting for the obligatory Haynes book to arrive but wondered what else I can try to fault find this issue as the van was working fine before "jump lead gate".

I'm a bit of a mechanical noob but not an idiot so please be gentle

Cheers,

Andy

[bortaf]

Try wiggling the key when it's in the start pos, the ign switch on the back of the key housings are known to go without warning and check and clean the main battery earth (front right hand drivers seat base mounting bolt).

[tranmx2]

As botof sugests.

Make sure the earth strap is good and its connections to the starter motor and chassis. Make sure the battery terminals and connectors are clean and bright as well as the battery earth to chassis.

The starter solenoid can stick. The starter motor can stick - give it a knock. The contacts of the switch get very dirty = no connection.

It's been raining a lot so likely damp is in = accelerates the rusting - more rust. Rust can act as insulation between two faces.
2005 2024 = 19 feeling its age.

[clydebuilt]

Thanks for the quick replies bortal and tranmx2! Yeah, the old girl is feeling her age I think

I'll check the condition of the main battery earth and battery connectors after work today and make sure it's all shiny metal. If this is good but still no crank then I'll try the ignition switch wiggle test.

Another noob question, I've had a search on the forum and done some Google-fu but can't find the location of the starter motor. Until Mr Hayne's book arrives, can someone point me in the right direction so I can give it a knock pls?

Cheers!

Andy

[tranmx2]

On the RWD it is on the lhs below the inlet manifold above the oil cooler and chassis/eng cross member. Don't know about FWD but likely to be on the lhs at the front of the engine.
Lhs of vehicle/eng' is when a person is looking forward from the driver's seat. Not the persons lhs when looking at the front of the vehicle.
If the starter motor is stuck - put the vehicle into 1st, 2nd or third gear and push/pull the vehicle forward and back - if it is on the flat surface. Have blocks to stop it from rolling away or a small person who can apply the brake inside.

[knobby1]

Another noob question, I've had a search on the forum and done some Google-fu but can't find the location of the starter motor. Until Mr Hayne's book arrives, can someone point me in the right direction so I can give it a knock pls?Cheers!Andy

Starter on the FWD's is at front of engine under the inlet manifold on the engine/gearbox split line.

Lord Knobrot

[clydebuilt]

Cheers for the starter location clarification knobby1

Apologies for the delay in posting an update; work and sh*t weather have conspired to foil me. Today I had some time to spend on the van. So, following the advice above, I wiggled the key in the ignition a few different ways but this made no difference - still no crank. I then pulled the driver's seat forward, removed the batteries and unbolted the main battery earth. The battery terminals and earth didn't look corroded but I gave them a wire brush to ensure they were shiny before reassembling - https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/r54jkx7w ... zr04b&dl=0, https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/5lihiupk ... e8pzs&dl=0.

This also gave me an opportunity to clean out all the crap that had gathered under the driver's seat! I also charged both batteries while separated. Both are showing around 12.4v. Sadly, this hasn't made any difference to the underlying problem as there is still no starter motor activity.

I guess the next step is to give the starter a knock and if this makes no difference I'll check the starter motor connections as transmx2 suggested.

The Haynes book has now arrived so I'll check that for starting problem troubleshooting too.

Cheers!

[knobby1]

Cheers for the starter location clarification knobby1

Apologies for the delay in posting an update; work and sh*t weather have conspired to foil me. Today I had some time to spend on the van. So, following the advice above, I wiggled the key in the ignition a few different ways but this made no difference - still no crank. I then pulled the driver's seat forward, removed the batteries and unbolted the main battery earth. The battery terminals and earth didn't look corroded but I gave them a wire brush to ensure they were shiny before reassembling - https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/r54jkx7w ... zr04b&dl=0, https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/5lihiupk ... e8pzs&dl=0.

This also gave me an opportunity to clean out all the crap that had gathered under the driver's seat! I also charged both batteries while separated. Both are showing around 12.4v. Sadly, this hasn't made any difference to the underlying problem as there is still no starter motor activity.

I guess the next step is to give the starter a knock and if this makes no difference I'll check the starter motor connections as transmx2 suggested.

The Haynes book has now arrived so I'll check that for starting problem troubleshooting too.

Cheers!

Could be something as silly as a dead starter...they don't last forever.

Lord Knobrot

[clydebuilt]

Cheers knbby1. Good point mate. Is there a way to test this, if the other tests are inconclusive?

Cheers!

[clydebuilt]

Evening all. Today's update ...

Jacked up the van this afternoon and put it on axle stands, identified the starter motor (thanks knobby1 ) and checked the earth connection - no obvious corrosion but I unbolted it anyway and wirebrushed the connections, reassembled and applied grease - https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/w32ocg77 ... qxv95&dl=0.

I then found the solenoid connections; they were inside a plastic cover - https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/6zpxoyun ... pjkpf&dl=0. I couldn't get at the nuts to unscrew them due to all the other engine bits in the way. However, they *looked* nice and bright - best I can do without removing the starter I think - https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/obvp2mlc ... si736&dl=0. Is there a way to get at the solenoid nuts?

I measured 12.4v at the battery positive solenoid nut even without the ignition key inserted - is this expected?

I measured 10.7v on the ignition switch solenoid nut when the ignition key was in position 2 - should there be a voltage drop here? If not, what should I test next please? I did hear clicking but am unsure if this was from the solenoid or elsewhere.

Finally, I tried giving the starter motor a few knocks with a hammer but due to the lack of space and access around the motor the blows were pretty pathetic.

Going back to tranmx2's earlier comment:

If the starter motor is stuck - put the vehicle into 1st, 2nd or third gear and push/pull the vehicle forward and back - if it is on the flat surface. Have blocks to stop it from rolling away or a small person who can apply the brake inside.

I'd need to attach the van to a tow rope to do this as it's a motorhome conversion that's bloody heavy. It's currently on my driveway and my concern is that if I tow it forward and it still won't start, I'll have it stuck in the way. Cheers for the suggestion though!

If all of the above sounds right to you knowledgable people, I assume the next step is swapping out the starter motor?

Cheers.

[metalworker0]

You can turn the crank about a quarter turn clockwise with ring spanner or ratchet ..this may help .

some explanation.

On most engines when shut down, the flywheel always stops in the same place...so the flywheel always wears in the same place, the teeth on the flywheel can become worn and a bit distorted in that area, turning the crank, to a different place will move the flywheel as well and may dis-engage the stuck starter pinion gear. - if stuck!

You may also have a bit of rust on the flywheel ..because of lack of use...it may have jammed on the rust ..if you can get it started , if it frees off ..take to running temperature ...and then stop and start a dozen times to clean it up ..hopefully without dismantling ...that is , if this is the cause.

all the best.mark

[tranmx2]

I measured 12.4v at the battery positive solenoid nut even without the ignition key inserted - is this expected? Yes - the thick red wire comes from the battery via the jump con. 12.6 V could be better. There could be resistance at the jump protrusion.
Rusting.
I measured 10.7v on the ignition switch solenoid nut when the ignition key was in position 2 - should there be a voltage drop here? Should be battery V. Maybe loss at the starter switch dirty contacts. Wire connectors damaged. Dirty relay contacts if there is one in that system,damaged fuse, fuse contacts, fuse box wiring under fuse location.
If not, what should I test next please? Check the circuit - wire to and from the key starter for continuety ohms DMM. You can also check on the V drop - lots of info' how to on the internet.
I did hear clicking but am unsure if this was from the solenoid or elsewhere. The starter solenoid usually gives a good wack which you'd hear when near it. If the contact plates have arcing/carbon on them which they usually have the contact noise of the 2 plates is softened. The solenoid is eathed via the solenoid body/motor to chassis to B -.
There's web info' re' what you need to do and how to do it. Make notes of what to do, what is to be done and keep notes of what you did and happened - the whole thing takes time - no point is trying to rush it.

I measured 10.7v on the ignition switch solenoid nut when the ignition key was in position 2 - if you did this with the wire disconnected from the solenoid - is seems there is a proplem in the circuit B+, starter key, wire connectors, relays,fuses.
Between the B+ and the end of the wire you had the DMM on.
If you did this with the wire connected to the solenoid - there is likely a resistance in the solenoid - the solenoid itself is a resistance. The resistance has taken up the 1.7 V.
The solenoid should have moved and the starter motor should have turned.

You need to portray exactly what you have done. Touching a live wire to earth - such as the thick red wire on the solenoid could damage things like the Battery or a module. The V travels through all of the return circuitary.

[knobby1]

Cheers knbby1. Good point mate. Is there a way to test this, if the other tests are inconclusive?

Cheers!

Some simple diagnostics.....Short the two "bigger" nuts on the starter solenoid with a screwdriver, starter "should" engage....if it works, the solenoid is working but is not being energized when you go to start with the key...the small energizing wire may be broken or not getting power from the ignition switch or relay. Also check relay #1 in the engine bay fuse box.

Lord Knobrot

[clydebuilt]

Evening all.

Thanks as ever for the responses!

You can turn the crank about a quarter turn clockwise with ring spanner or ratchet ..this may help .

. Thanks for the tip metalworker1. Quick question on this; where do I out the spanner / ratchet as Google turns nothing up. Again, apologies for noob questions. I'm writing all of this down!

Tranmx2, thanks for answering my questions voltage .

You need to portray exactly what you have done.

Yeah, sorry if any of this is unclear as I'm learning as I go. The voltage measurements I took this afternoon were with the solenoid wiring still connected and I just touched the + probe of the multimeter to each big nut of the solenoid in turn and had the - probe connected to the starter earth connection; so the voltage drop is most likely resistance of the solenoid itself. I couldn't figure out how to get the nuts off the solenoid to test out of circuit. Seems the starter in a FWD transit is less accessible than a RWD. Definitely no "good wack" from the solenoid when the key is turned as I had my head under the van when measuring the voltage. Totally agree that this troubleshooting takes time and I'm taking plenty of notes!

Knobby1, many thanks for the diagnostic hint. It's very fiddly trying to get to the solenoid nuts but I'll find a way and try it tomorrow after work and report back.

Cheers all you sensei for your ongoing help here!

Andy

[metalworker0]

Look at the sump / oil pan, at the opposite side to the gearbox, where the sump joins onto the bottom of the engine ...exactly in the middle, a couple of inches above the sump should be a pulley ..in the centre of that pulley is a nut ..that is the one you turn clockwise....

This is the sort of view you will have of it if front wheel drive. (not transit) note on your transit there will be other pulleys ...the middle one is what you are after ..that is , the one that lines up with middle of sump / engine block

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskMechanics/c ... _i_try_to/

sorry you are going to have to press on the picture ..press reject cookies etc

the only picture i could find that shows it simply without other clutter


all the best.mark