LX90 1.8 TDCI strange problem?

[Big Jake]

Just thought I would put a quick update on here in case it may help somebody.

I finally got a few hours to get stuck in and here's what I found, firstly I
managed to test all four cylinders and found that number 3 and 4 were around the
50 to 60 psi mark which wasn't enough, 1 and 2 was up in the 150 - 160 psi mark.
I then set about doing a leak test on each cylinder and found I had leakage
through the inlet and exhaust valves on 3 cylinders! Nothing left now but to
pull the head off and here's the results.



Seems i talked myself into breaking it when it was just a coincidence, if you look carefully the other two bridges have started to "blow by" as well. im putting this down to an over enthusiastic engine remap so it will be mapped back to sensible on the rebuild. New gasket set and bolts ordered, will clean up and check the faces tomorrow, as now i'm going for a beer!

[winterheating]

I take it timing was perfect?

[winterheating]

It's a pitty you've stripped before checking the fuel system, as you could well need to replace injectors going off the symptoms.

The gap in the hg, is that not between 3&4?????

[Big Jake]

It's a pitty you've stripped before checking the fuel system, as you could well need to replace injectors going off the symptoms.

I'm now more than happy that once back together with a new oil, filter, belt, tensioner and remapped it will run perfect, all the symptoms I had leading up to it make sense to me and probably most others with time served experience now. Don't want to over complicate things anymore than needed now eh?

The gap in the hg, is that not between 3&4?????

Yes hence why I stated the compression was down on 3 and 4.

[winterheating]

Yet a simple leak off test would of took 15mins.
Suppose always best to just go off a hunch though eh.

I know you didn't say but I'm guessing you did remove the injector plugs to stop the fuel firing, when doing the compression test?

I think I know, why you think the symptoms would point to low compression, apart from the diesel rattle?? How does low compression cause that??

[Big Jake]

Yet a simple leak off test would of took 15mins.
What on the injectors? Why? Do you mean leak off test or cylinder leak test? Do you know the difference?

Suppose always best to just go off a hunch though eh.
Once I found the lack of compression I needed to determine where it had gone before stripping to save time searching when the head was off.

I know you didn't say but I'm guessing you did remove the injector plugs to stop the fuel firing, when doing the compression test?
Why when the fuel pipe was disconnected and HPP unplugged? Plus with the glow plugs out HTF is it going to fire????! You obviously have a lot to learn.


I think I know, why you think the symptoms would point to low compression, apart from the diesel rattle?? How does low compression cause that??

I didn't think it had low compression IT HAD 50 PSI ON TWO CYLINDERS Please read it properly, the rattle disappeared when the symptoms appeared.

[winterheating]

Huuuugggghhhhh

Think you need to read, I asked about 4 times if injector plugs were disconnected....

So yes there was diesel rattle... Previously why do you think the reason for this was?

So you say then when low compression symptoms appeared, but there was other symptoms, on off throttle, hesitant to start etc... So this must mean you initially thought low compression at what point?????????????

Fuel pump disconnected means it will be in max pressure mode, with these.

You don't want fuel injecting when doing a compression test.

So looks like it wasn't firing anyway due to fuelling fault.

And when there is no injection it does sound lower on compression...

And an injector leak off test would have told you a lot, a high pressure one to start with then simple 3 min test when running.

Also the pump isn't actually timed itself.

Also you immediately disregarded the flashing ecu comment, but have now said you think that's the problem..... But can I just ask how you think the ecu would have caused this....???

[Big Jake]

Huuuugggghhhhh

Think you need to read, I asked about 4 times if injector plugs were disconnected....

You asked once previous, I ignored because it was irrelevant.

So yes there was diesel rattle... Previously why do you think the reason for this was?

Please read the posts in full.


So you say then when low compression symptoms appeared, but there was other symptoms, on off throttle, hesitant to start etc... So this must mean you initially thought low compression at what point?????????????

Please read properly.

Fuel pump disconnected means it will be in max pressure mode, with these.

How do you pressurise a vapour exiting to atmosphere?

You don't want fuel injecting when doing a compression.

Doing a compression what? Injecting what exactly when fuel line is disconnected?

So looks like it wasn't firing anyway due to fuelling fault.

Hows it ever going to fire with all the heater plugs out and 50 psi on two cylinders, this is a COMPRESSION IGNITION engine, it has no compression and no fuel for ignition?

And when there is no injection it does sound lower on compression...

Complete rubbish, but the trained ear can tell when there is no compression on any engine.

And an injector leak off test would have told you a lot, a high pressure one to start with then simple 3 min test when running.

It's impossible to do a high pressure leak off test as leak off pipes are NOT under high pressure, please know what your talking about as already stated on here by dieselboy it is very dangerous to mess with things when you don't know what you are doing.

Also the pump isn't actually timed itself.

I know but it still links the chain and belt to the cam.

Also you immediately disregarded the flashing ecu comment, but have now said you think that's the problem..... But can I just ask how you think the ecu would have caused this....???

I never said it did.


TBH I lost interest in your input when you wrongly told me I didn't do the compression test correctly, I hope you have been on to Ford and told them how to do It. You obviously spend a lot of time on here with no real experience or clue as to what you are talking about, reading about it is one thing, doing it is another. I came on originally for helpful input from people with first hand experiences and to the people who tried to help I thank you, you in my opinion tried to show off and to me came through as having little hands on experience?

[winterheating]

You wrote
the guy I bought it off told me it has been remapped up to 115, it has run fine all be it with a fairly loud diesel knock and the throttle was a bit like an on / off switch.

classic fuel injection fault

You wrote
Well straight after on start up it took a couple of attempts and was a bit hesitant in revving but cleared with a couple of blips of the throttle, over the day on every attempt to start it it got harder and harder to start, turning over fine but just not catching. It was then left for a couple of hours until home time, on leaving the garage it just turned over and over for ages until it eventually fired up but on one, then two and three until it came in on all four cylinders but with an even louder diesel knock on idle

louder diesel knock hmmm, why would that be


You wrote
No way would it start, it was spinning over and trying to fire but wouldn't start no way. A guy stopped and offered me a push and hey presto it fired up first time and drove the rest of the way home. The situation now is the only way I can get it going is with a tow and the starter side has got worse, when you crank it over it sounds like their is no compression or an engine that has bent valves if you know what I mean.

or sign of no fuel injected due to low power and cranking speed and dodgy fuelling

You wrote
he valve/pump timing but I am wondering if any of you guys more familiar with this engine has any similar experiences or ideas that I am missing maybe

You asked your question was answered

Blue estate wrote
Try a new starter as i had a focus Tdci that was the same , pants at cold/warm starting but good hot
So i took starter off stripped it and found one of the field magnets had broken up put a new starter on and it started straight away even cold but also check the timing belt
p/s how many miles age of van


First bit of good advice, that you replied

You wrote
but its not turning any slower now and whilst its turning its only trying to fire on the odd cylinder and when running its definitely a lot flatter and down on power with no knock. Definitely an engine problem but I'll put a starter on it anyway.

You didnt say you checked cranking voltage or cranking speed??? sort of disregarded the advcice, point is yes it is an engine problem but why???

minor matt wrote
I would try a starter too... but have you had it plugged in to get the codes read?

2nd bit of very good advice, again someone else getting the feeling of incorrect cranking speed, power issue. Again with the fact it started with a push


You wrote
I've not had the codes read but it's not brought any lights up and a mate who is a tech at the local Ford garage reckons it won't show any faults if no lights have come on?

fair enough a ford tech told you, but hes obviously not as good as the ones who come on here, which was then cleared up for you by minor matt

I wrote

Every single thing you've said points to fuel injection problems. On off throttle, diesel knock, no start with a sound of no compression...
It could just be the remap though if its been done by a cowboy. May have to flash your ecu to start with.

All from my experince, but hey??
Over the recent years with all the inexperinced ebay machine remapers about its becoming more and more common vehicle problems due to these incorrect remaps. Which then high roof pointed out it is a common problem these days.
As i said it was just to make you aware of this. Its pretty obvious to everyone there is more than one issue with your vehicle, can be a domino effcet or not
And to me with my little experience on no hands on straight away fuel system issue for defo with the amount of symtoms pointing to it

dieseboy1978 wrote

The diesel knock could well be problems with the injectors. Especially the control valves in the injectors or the nozzle leaking diesel onto the piston.
I would look as fuel system first. Hard starting could also be injectors as back leakage issues could be causing starting problems.
If you need any advice free free to pm.
BUT remember these checks and fuel systems are not jobs for DIY unless you know how they operate or how they can kill if proper procedures are not taken into account

Again the next bit of "correct"advice, i think you missed this bit, or again disregarded it

You wrote
Pretty sure it's not the injectors because as I stated originally the diesel knock disappeared when the starting issues appeared and now with the lack of compression on number 4 this is where I will have to start first. I asked my original question in the hope that this was a common problem or someone had come across it before and could save me a lot of time and head scratching.

allready to far on the slipery slope you just wont take it in, so contradictory the answer to your 2nd statement is staring you in your face

You wrote
I have started to pull it apart to check the valve timing first and will update you all with my findings at a later date but I have an awful feeling that I inadvertently turned the engine backwards thus causing the chain to jump a tooth or two, and if they are anything like the bigger Transit it may have damaged the tensioner pawl causing the chain to run slack?

yes true you could of done this but does it explain the first problems with the vehicle

i wrote
Did you remove injector plugs when checking compression??

simple concise question. If you had done the procedure correctly and a competent mechanic you would know exactly what i meant
oh and if you had followed Ford direct instructions too9, so not sure were you going with that one maybe got it from the same tech as the other advice

You wrote
No, compression test is done through the heater plugs on these.

It would only start with a bump start, I even tried it with two truck battery's on it, you can hear the lack of compression when it's turning over.

Cheers,
Al.

Again you were confused with the question i asked, and just stating you could here the lack of compression, but no mention of checking fuelling, or caranking speed or power, so is no real diagnosis

i wrote
So you didn't remove the injector plugs, to do the test correctly.

Sounds like the starter Is goosed and your dodgy injector is the one with lower compression reading.

As the starter isn't turning engine enough the compression is not getting high enough. Hence why it still won't start with plenty of power but does when bumping, and not forgetting the loud injector rattle you've always had.........,

I asked again if the injector plugs were removed, and pointing out your initial faults


You wrote
Hi,
Ford state the compression test is done through the heater plug hole and I even borrowed their adaptor to do it. Also I have been lent some software for it that also states through the heater plug holes. If it was only the one cylinder with low compression i would expect it to start on the key but run on 3 cylinders on idle and pick up when revved. The injector rattle wasn't restricted to one cylinder and I'm now convinced that is because of a poor remap

yes well done you know where the tester goes, has no relavence to the question i asked about diasbling injectors by removing plugs.
Yes thats correct i thought you had got it then, it should start on 3 if only there wasnt a fault with fueilling Injector rattle not restricted to 1 cylinder, yes your understanding it...And first time you said it could be the remap, allthough you last stated you never mentioned it

You wrote
One other point is that as long as the valves are seating properly and the engine is healthy enough eg rings and bores are good then as long as it turns at a reasonable speed and not too slow then spinning it even quicker will make absolutely no difference.

Again youve confused yourself , saying it has too be at a reasonable speed( yes hence why you need to check cranking speed and power mentioned numerous times now) but going any faster wont make a difference....really, so what makes the difference from 1rpm to 200rpm
whats one of the reasons it starts bumping


i wrote
So did you remove the injector plugs when doing the compression test???



What about checking all voltages, standing cranking and voltage at starter motor too, and or clean all connection.

Erm 3rd time i asked about injector plugs, i know people can forget to reply, and again, simple conclusive checks.

i wrote
Ah yeah sorry you connected battery straight to starter, so sort of rules that out.

i apologise it doesnt really rule it out fully. starter could have an endless amout of power and still not turn enough or use the power should i say

Pltcmn wrote
I had the exact same problem with my tdci ,,,,fuel pump and injectors will sort ,,,

An other poor sole trying to offer good advice to your problem.

Yeah no reply to him

You wrote

Nothing left now but to
pull the head off and here's the results.

well there is something you could of done a full diagnostic on the actual cause of the failure as not to jump in and remove head.

Seems i talked myself into breaking it when it was just a coincidence, if you look carefully the other two bridges have started to "blow by" as well. im putting this down to an over enthusiastic engine remap so it will be mapped back to sensible on the rebuild. New gasket set and bolts ordered, will clean up and check the faces tomorrow, as now i'm going for a beer

Again mentioned you think its because of remap .... but why, how would the injection timing and amount cause this i wonder:?:

i wrote
It's a pitty you've stripped before checking the fuel system, as you could well need to replace injectors going off the symptoms.

The gap in the hg, is that not between 3&4?????

You wrote
'm now more than happy that once back together with a new oil, filter, belt, tensioner and remapped it will run perfect, all the symptoms I had leading up to it make sense to me and probably most others with time served experience now. Don't want to over complicate things anymore than needed now eh?

3rd time now i think youve mentioned it could well be down to the remapthats caused the failure.
well not over complicate but if you took the advice from those who know could of saved yourself an endless headache, im right with you there though there will be a couple of people that you backwards logic makes sense too.

i wrote
Yet a simple leak off test would of took 15mins.


You wrote
What on the injectors? Why? Do you mean leak off test or cylinder leak test? Do you know the difference?

Yes i do thanks

i wrote
Suppose always best to just go off a hunch though eh.


Once I found the lack of compression I needed to determine where it had gone before stripping to save time searching when the head was off.

This is the backwards logic i mean ive seen it before. End up searching for something they cant find only to eventually find the route cause after repeated failure.

i wrote
I know you didn't say but I'm guessing you did remove the injector plugs to stop the fuel firing, when doing the compression test?

You wrote
Why when the fuel pipe was disconnected and HPP unplugged? Plus with the glow plugs out HTF is it going to fire????! You obviously have a lot to learn.

Which just proves you havnt a clue. And most certainly didnt follow Ford technical instructions
Its actually a direct injected diesel engine so yes it will fire Yes its an 8v engine and lower compression so they are not as instant as other direct injected diesel engines, and do really need plugs for cold weather starting

You wrote
I didn't think it had low compression IT HAD 50 PSI ON TWO CYLINDERS Please read it properly, the rattle disappeared when the symptoms appeared.
Its always had a rattle since you owned it, that is one of the symptoms you first told us



i wrote
Huuuugggghhhhh

Think you need to read, I asked about 4 times if injector plugs were disconnected....

So yes there was diesel rattle... Previously why do you think the reason for this was?

So you say then when low compression symptoms appeared, but there was other symptoms, on off throttle, hesitant to start etc... So this must mean you initially thought low compression at what point?????????????

Fuel pump disconnected means it will be in max pressure mode, with these.

You don't want fuel injecting when doing a compression test.

So looks like it wasn't firing anyway due to fuelling fault.

And when there is no injection it does sound lower on compression...

And an injector leak off test would have told you a lot, a high pressure one to start with then simple 3 min test when running.

Also the pump isn't actually timed itself.

Also you immediately disregarded the flashing ecu comment, but have now said you think that's the problem..... But can I just ask how you think the ecu would have caused this....???


i wrote
Think you need to read, I asked about 4 times if injector plugs were disconnected....

You wrote
You asked once previous, I ignored because it was irrelevant.

again i asked 4 times

i wrote
Fuel pump disconnected means it will be in max pressure mode, with these.

You wrote
How do you pressurise a vapour exiting to atmosphere?

you mean the diesel that will of been pissing out the high pressure rail feed pipe
what do you mean a vapour Or are you getting confused with what a diesel fuel does

i wrote
You don't want fuel injecting when doing a compression.

You wrote
Doing a compression what? Injecting what exactly when fuel line is disconnected?

Sorry yeah your right you did it that way.


i wrote
So looks like it wasn't firing anyway due to fuelling fault.

You wrote
Hows it ever going to fire with all the heater plugs out and 50 psi on two cylinders, this is a COMPRESSION IGNITION engine, it has no compression and no fuel for ignition?

So you know there is actually going to be low compression before doing the test to check for compression You even said it youself "its a compression ignition" but yeah again sorry you didnt have fuel line on. Allthjough a backwards way to do it, and diesel should have been everywhaer with the IMV on pump disconnected

i wrote
And when there is no injection it does sound lower on compression...

You wrote
Complete rubbish, but the trained ear can tell when there is no compression on any engine.

hmm yes it does sound different to when it is firing some fuel but not starting. Ah the good old "trained ear" precise diagnostic kit,..... well erm it sounded ok

i wrote
And an injector leak off test would have told you a lot, a high pressure one to start with then simple 3 min test when running.

You wrote
It's impossible to do a high pressure leak off test as leak off pipes are NOT under high pressure, please know what your talking about as already stated on here by dieselboy it is very dangerous to mess with things when you don't know what you are doing.

im afraid you dont know what your talking about.
high pressure test
remove IMV plug(brown) on pump to leave it fully open
check rail pressure by live reading, or some you can get suitable equipment on the rail or high pressure pipe somewhere
leak off containrs connected onto each leak off connection on the injectors,
blank the connection return to pump, to stop air being drawn in as its on the vacumn side of transfer pump(part of High pressure pump)
remove each individual injector plug so the injector doesnt fire.
Remove glowplug relay.
crank for a certain period check fuel pressure reaches at least 1050 in this test.
And there should be a certain amount of fuel in leak off containers after 5 seconds cranking.

Yes i wouldnt recomend you do it though,going from your previous (i did it old school and put my finger over the hole) im pretty sure its never been a safe thing to do

i wrote
Also the pump isn't actually timed itself.

You wrote
I know but it still links the chain and belt to the cam.

I was just double checking as you did say "im going to check valve/pump timing tomorrow"

i wrote
Also you immediately disregarded the flashing ecu comment, but have now said you think that's the problem..... But can I just ask how you think the ecu would have caused this....???

You wrote
I never said it did.

no you never once mentioned it


You wrote
TBH I lost interest in your input when you wrongly told me I didn't do the compression test correctly, I hope you have been on to Ford and told them how to do It. You obviously spend a lot of time on here with no real experience or clue as to what you are talking about, reading about it is one thing, doing it is another. I came on originally for helpful input from people with first hand experiences and to the people who tried to help I thank you, you in my opinion tried to show off and to me came through as having little hands on experience?


Thats fair enough, peole who often presume things constantly do get confused easily. I use fords technical instruction cd all the time thanks. Yeah all pressumptions.
Hmm tried to show off not sure what you mean
But since youve taken no ones advice anyway, its clear to say you havnt come here originally for helpful input from people with first hand experiences.

[winterheating]

So to clarify the main symptom/problem for whatever reason it has been caused has been the "diesel knock".
Anybody with a bit of knowledge should know this can very easily lead to serious mechanical failure, wether it be burnt valves, burnt nozzle tip holes, cracked/melted pistons, cylinder damage or blow through of head gasket.....


Also you must never do a compression test with common rail injectors with electrical plugs connected, as with no fuel pressure whatever is compressed in bore can easily back enter the injector nozzle then injector causing damage.

This often seen with engines that become hydro locked with water or oil, Ingres into injectors and severe damage happens (aswell as the conrods LOL)

[Pltcmn]

Well said winter heating ,,,and yes you are spot on with what you say ANY starting or fuelling problems the FIRST thing to do is a leak test ,,,it tells you so much yet so quick and simple to do ,,,when my vans fuel pump failed on me it was up and running again within 2 days ,,big jakes why ask for people's advise then ,,tell us and assume its this that and the other ,,,next time you get a starting problem DO A LEAK TEST FIRST ,,,,I did yet I know nothing

[g-man]

be surprised if the map caused the gasket to go, more likely just one of those things with that mileage, can't remember anybody blaming a remap before