Factory Duel Batteries Issues - Help Please

[GUM801]

Apologies if this has been covered, I have had a look but cannot find a related thread, would be appreciative to be shown a link if available and/or advice is welcomed. Thanks

2016, Jumbo 470E, 2.2L, Manual, RWD, Factory Duel Batteries, Start Stop fitted. In Australia.

The van has duel batteries from factory. I purchased the van recently pre owned. After a few weeks I could smell fumes when driving, after investigation I found gas coming from one of the batteries. I checked the battery and it was well and truly dead, completely cooked, The second battery was still perfectly fine however I replaced both batteries and had the system tested. All Good they said. What a fantastic first experience, the van has the Start Stop so the batteries are super expensive.

A couple of weeks later I started to install my Auxiliary battery system into the van as part of the conversion into a campervan. I pulled the drivers seat out to access the factory batteries to hook into them and noticed the same battery is dead again. Tested it and it was flat but took charge no problem. No indication from the van, still starting and running fine.

Following this was a few trips back to the Auto Electrician and to Ford, they took my money and assured me everything was ok. Not being happy with this diagnosis as obviously everything is not ok, I took the van home and pulled the seat out and had a good look at the battery system. Not knowing anything abut Transits but knowing a little about 12V it is obvious the system is quite complexed. A fair bit of research and testing followed...

I found:

I know that:

The charging system is charging both batteries when engine is running.
The batteries only loose minimal charge when the van is not used, I stood the van for a week without use and batteries were fine.
One of the batteries looses charge rapidly if you leave the rear cargo doors open for a period of time, even when the internal lights have been removed.

I think I know that: .....[any input welcome]..

The two factory batteries are somewhat isolated from each other, one for starting and one for auxiliaries?
The auxiliary battery is the one loosing charge.
The Body Control Module stays on if the doors are open?
The Body Control Module is Hungry!!? And is flattening my new expensive battery.

I also know that:

The battery will charge on a long drive. but..
I have been leaving the doors open to work on the van and only driving short distances.

I think I know that: .....[any input welcome]..

The smart alternator is more interested in saving fuel that charging the second battery to full, so unlike a conventional alternator I need to drive further the charge a very low battery.

So my assumption is:

After all the research and testing it became apparent that the previous owner was a tradesman, He would leave the van doors open all day and only drive a short distance to and from the worksite. the battery was constantly drained and not getting enough charge. As the van always started there was no way of knowing there was an issue and after four years the auxiliary battery just was wrecked. Since I have had the van I have done a similar thing, leaving the doors open to do the camper conversion and not driving great distances.

I would really appreciate any input on my theory.. or on experiences others have had in this area.

And then my question is:

... has anyone found a workaround, can I change the preferences on ForScan? I would prefer not to be cutting wires to sensors and would like to still have the door open warnings on the dash ect. The Van will be a camper and we live in Australia, the doors will be open all the time, so I need a proper fix, any help would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers Lee

.

[bortaf]

When you open the rear doors, lock the open door with a screw driver to trip the latch then lock it with the fob and the BCM will "think" the door is shut and go to sleep, i had to do this on mine (admittedly it's a Mk7) but it worked to fool the BCM into going to sleep ? may work for the Mk8 ??

[BHM]

In my twin battery custom I switch off the cabin interior lights, lock the entire van, then only unlock the cargo area.

By keeping the cabin locked, less stuff is powered-up and when I shut (not lock) the cargo doors the cargo lights only stay on for a few seconds.

Without locking the cabin the battery can flatten on about 5 hours if I'm in and out of the cargo area whilst on-site.

BHM

[Altransit]

I think that there's mileage in the theory that it's the BCM flattening the aux battery There shouldn't be enough current drain in the LED's to drain a large battery even if you leave it/them on all day (which you can't do anyway)
I have to go in my van several times a day, and with lockdown have hardly been going anywhere, so I have to give the batteries a boost every couple of weeks to keep the starting crisp. I replaced the aux one a few weeks back as the old one was struggling, but it's still much the same as before.

I've been pondering the BCM theory myself, and came to the same conclusion, as it powers up every time you unlock the van, and this in turn powers up several circuits which stay live for up to half an hour every time. I need to set up an ammeter in the battery feed, (which I can see through the window), and check to see how much power is draining, and for how long

[2tall]

... has anyone found a workaround, can I change the preferences on ForScan?

Yes, you can change the target charge level in ForScan. IIRC by default the "smart" alternator target charge level is only 80 %.

[GUM801]

When you open the rear doors, lock the open door with a screw driver to trip the latch then lock it with the fob and the BCM will "think" the door is shut and go to sleep, i had to do this on mine (admittedly it's a Mk7) but it worked to fool the BCM into going to sleep ? may work for the Mk8 ??

Thanks Bortaf, Yes, this trick helps in the short term, I would like a more permanent solution though, We plan on travelling in the Van and would just like it to work without having to do this every time. Thanks for you input, Cheers

[GUM801]

In my twin battery custom I switch off the cabin interior lights, lock the entire van, then only unlock the cargo area.

By keeping the cabin locked, less stuff is powered-up and when I shut (not lock) the cargo doors the cargo lights only stay on for a few seconds.

Without locking the cabin the battery can flatten on about 5 hours if I'm in and out of the cargo area whilst on-site.

BHM

Thanks BHM, I will try and test this thanks. I assumed the battery was going flat due to the BCM being on due to the doors being open, I did not think about the BCM being on due to the Van being unlocked, I will look into this. In Australia most of these vans are delivery vans so I don't think they would see this issue as they are constantly running the engine, but a lot are Tradesman's vans, so many people must be damaging there batteries and not knowing about it until the battery is wrecked. I find this crazy we need to find a workaround for this, such a design fault, surely there is a programing solution, the issue is my local Ford Dealer has no idea what they are doing, its very frustrating.

[GUM801]

I've been pondering the BCM theory myself, and came to the same conclusion, as it powers up every time you unlock the van, and this in turn powers up several circuits which stay live for up to half an hour every time. I need to set up an ammeter in the battery feed, (which I can see through the window), and check to see how much power is draining, and for how long

Altransit, Cheers, I had read about the BCM power up which is how I came to my conclusion, I would be interested to hear your results if you hook up the meter. I have hooked up Bluetooth battery monitors on both batteries so can see the voltage charge and discharge of each battery independently but cannot see where the discharge is going. More Testing!

[GUM801]

... has anyone found a workaround, can I change the preferences on ForScan?

Yes, you can change the target charge level in ForScan. IIRC by default the "smart" alternator target charge level is only 80 %.

2tall Thankyou, this is the path I think I need to follow, I have not got access to ForScan yet but plan on doing so. I believe my problem is in two parts, the loss of voltage due to the BCM and then the Smart Regenerative Charging. The van is going to be a campervan so I plan on adding an additional battery bank to run the additional requirements ect. The additional battery bank will charge via Solar and from the Alternator via a DC to DC charger, I think the Smart Regenerative Charging is really going to mess with this system. I think I will need to change the settings as you suggested. The Mechanic at Ford also mentioned that it might be possible to switched off the Smart Regenerative Charging completely, then the alternator would act like a conventional alternator. Do you know if this is possible?? TIA

Also my van has start/stop, this is automatically ON, The button is the A in the circle. I was thinking this was Eco Mode but now think Eco Mode is different, My start/stop button does not appear to change anything but the start stop function. Any ideas on this? Thanks

[2tall]

Yes, the smart charging system will try to decharge your fully charged battery bank if not disabled.

I'm using only the dual AGM batteries with a solar panel connected to the batteries via a Victron solar controller.

I have set the charging target to 100 % in ForScan and the alternator seems to work like a conventional one, keeping the charging voltage between 14,4–14,8 V.

The setting is ForScan was a wee bit confusing regarding the voltage. Not sure what they mean with "16V" there, the charging voltage tops at 14,8V like it should with AGM.

[hughesyn]

The Mechanic at Ford also mentioned that it might be possible to switched off the Smart Regenerative Charging completely, then the alternator would act like a conventional alternator. Do you know if this is possible?? TIA

Also my van has start/stop, this is automatically ON, The button is the A in the circle. I was thinking this was Eco Mode but now think Eco Mode is different, My start/stop button does not appear to change anything but the start stop function. Any ideas on this? Thanks

This is all explained in the Body and Equipment Mounting Manual.
Have you read that?

Turning off Stop/start should disable Smart Regenerative Charging, but you have to switch it every time.

There are several other ways to disable SRC described in the manual:
- the High Specification Vehicle Interface Connector (A608) with a link.
- using the standard 8 way Vehicle Interface Connector in the drivers seat pedestal (link pins 1 and 3)
a wiring kit is available to plug into the existing connector
- Ford Programmable Battery Guard (A540) the process for retrofitting this is shown in the manual

[GUM801]

Yes, the smart charging system will try to decharge your fully charged battery bank if not disabled.

I'm using only the dual AGM batteries with a solar panel connected to the batteries via a Victron solar controller.

I have set the charging target to 100 % in ForScan and the alternator seems to work like a conventional one, keeping the charging voltage between 14,4–14,8 V.

The setting is ForScan was a wee bit confusing regarding the voltage. Not sure what they mean with "16V" there, the charging voltage tops at 14,8V like it should with AGM.

2tall... Thankyou so much this is the exact answer I was hoping for, I will order the cable and get started on learning ForScan, I should imagine it will be useful for so many things down the road! I should imagine this will help solve the second part of my problem. You appear to be a bit of a Guru with ForScan, Do you have any ideas about turning the rear door sensors OFF from activating the BCM without loosing door open warnings ect?? [the first part of my problem] Thanks again, very helpful, Cheers.

[GUM801]

This is all explained in the Body and Equipment Mounting Manual.
Have you read that?

Turning off Stop/start should disable Smart Regenerative Charging, but you have to switch it every time.

There are several other ways to disable SRC described in the manual:
- the High Specification Vehicle Interface Connector (A608) with a link.
- using the standard 8 way Vehicle Interface Connector in the drivers seat pedestal (link pins 1 and 3)
a wiring kit is available to plug into the existing connector
- Ford Programmable Battery Guard (A540) the process for retrofitting this is shown in the manual

Thanks hughesyn, yes I have had a look at the document, in all honesty I found it hard to follow and missed this information completely, I will revisit and have another read, this could be a good solution without ForScan, Thanks so much, will look into it, Cheers

Turning off Stop/start should disable Smart Regenerative Charging, but you have to switch it every time. - In My Van this does not appear to be the case, I have been monitoring the voltage whilst driving and the start/stop does not appear to change the Smart Regenerative Charging, I wonder if there are different setting dependant on country location?

Grateful for your input, Cheers Lee

[JamesHow]

Hi just a few newbie questions on my mk 8 aux battery.

1) Which is the aux battery??

2) The aux battery is separated from the starter battery by a vsr?

3) The 12v outputs in the dash and above the dash are powered by the aux battery and not the starter battery?

4) Installing a inverter should be easy as wiring into aux battery. Should I go for modified sine wave or sine wave? Want to power power tools, microwave etc.

Thanks in anticipation...


Cheers James

[dumper]

If you want to run a microwave I’d fit a b2b smart charger and in my case two 120 amp ones when I use the 500 w microwave off a 1600 W Clark inverter it does hammer the batteries if you use the van auxiliary battery you could have some problems.