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Smart Alternators

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Smart Alternators

Postby mcbutler » Mon Jan 04, 2021 8:30 pm

Hi All,

I have a 2014 Mk8 jumbo tranny (can we still say tranny :shock: ).
I have two batteries under my drivers seat, one is ford, one is Yuasa, not sure if this is the dual battery option from build or if it was added by ATS tyre services who owned the van before me. Pic attached..
Anyway we are converting her to a camper and simply want to know if I have a smart or dumb alternator?
Thanks in advance
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Re: Smart Alternators

Postby Altransit » Mon Jan 04, 2021 8:35 pm

The Yuasa is a replacement, originals would have both been Ford batteries of identical size. It's the aux battery that's been replaced as they often fail first, but that means that the starter battery is probably over 6 years old
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Re: Smart Alternators

Postby Airthies » Tue Jan 05, 2021 1:45 am

The four terminals are identical which would suggest it's from factory like that, and Als comments re different batteries I would agree. The plugs with two wires attached to the earth terminals (on the right of your pic) would suggest that you have a smart charging alternator and require a B2B charger instead of a split charge VSR.

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Re: Smart Alternators

Postby mcbutler » Tue Jan 05, 2021 4:37 am

Altransit wrote:The Yuasa is a replacement, originals would have both been Ford batteries of identical size. It's the aux battery that's been replaced as they often fail first, but that means that the starter battery is probably over 6 years old

Thanks for the info Al, when you say 'aux battery' is an aux battery the same as a leisure battery i.e. is the main battery protected if the aux battery is discharged??
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Re: Smart Alternators

Postby mcbutler » Tue Jan 05, 2021 4:38 am

Airthies wrote:The four terminals are identical which would suggest it's from factory like that, and Als comments re different batteries I would agree. The plugs with two wires attached to the earth terminals (on the right of your pic) would suggest that you have a smart charging alternator and require a B2B charger instead of a split charge VSR.

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Excellent, many thanks for your help
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Re: Smart Alternators

Postby Altransit » Tue Jan 05, 2021 1:36 pm

mcbutler wrote:Thanks for the info Al, when you say 'aux battery' is an aux battery the same as a leisure battery i.e. is the main battery protected if the aux battery is discharged??

The aux battery alone powers all the electrics when the engine isn't running (lights, radio, central locking, etc) so the starter battery is protected from discharge.
Both batteries are connected together, via a heavy duty relay in the fuse box, for starting and charging, so the aux battery can't (or shouldn't) be an actual 'leisure battery' because those are not suitable to be used for the high current discharge of a starter motor.

Ideally, both batteries should be the same, and of the Silver Calcium variety :)
1994 Mk4 SWB 115 Minibus 70ps Di (R.I.P.)
1997 Mk5 SWB 115 Minibus 70ps Di (Gone, but not forgotten!)
2004 Mk6 SWB T280 Medium Roof 85PS 2.0 TDDi - Vantunered (Also gone)
2008 Mk7 SWB T280 Medium Roof 85PS 2.2 TDCi - Also Vantunered
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Re: Smart Alternators

Postby mcbutler » Wed Jan 06, 2021 8:59 pm

Altransit wrote:
mcbutler wrote:Thanks for the info Al, when you say 'aux battery' is an aux battery the same as a leisure battery i.e. is the main battery protected if the aux battery is discharged??

The aux battery alone powers all the electrics when the engine isn't running (lights, radio, central locking, etc) so the starter battery is protected from discharge.
Both batteries are connected together, via a heavy duty relay in the fuse box, for starting and charging, so the aux battery can't (or shouldn't) be an actual 'leisure battery' because those are not suitable to be used for the high current discharge of a starter motor.

Ideally, both batteries should be the same, and of the Silver Calcium variety :)

All very interesting thank you,to be clear I did not expect the aux battery to be a leisure battery type, I wondered if the aux battery could be used as a leisure battery, which it seems it is essentially.
Do you know the location of the relay that connects the batteries for starting?
I bought the transit manual from easymanuals for £14, its a load of pish half the infos missing and none of the links work.
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Re: Smart Alternators

Postby Altransit » Wed Jan 06, 2021 9:10 pm

The battery relay in the Mk7 is in the battery fuse box, behind/under the drivers seat. I would assume that the Mk8 is in a similar place. Put your key in the ignition and switch on, and you'll hear the loud clunk of the relay closing.

With regard to the aux battery, you 'shouldn't' use it as a leisure battery because these type of batteries are not suitable for deep discharging, which a leisure battery is designed for. You're better off adding it as a 3rd battery, independent of the van batteries, and charged via a B2B charger.
1994 Mk4 SWB 115 Minibus 70ps Di (R.I.P.)
1997 Mk5 SWB 115 Minibus 70ps Di (Gone, but not forgotten!)
2004 Mk6 SWB T280 Medium Roof 85PS 2.0 TDDi - Vantunered (Also gone)
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Re: Smart Alternators

Postby Sam123 » Mon Jan 18, 2021 9:04 pm

Perhaps someone can confirm or deny, but I’m sure when I was knocking around on Forscan a while back I saw an option to disable the smart alternator and set it to a conventional operation. If so, that could be useful in avoiding the need for a B2B to charge a leisure battery. Next time I have Forscan out I’ll check.
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Re: Smart Alternators

Postby johnporter11 » Tue Jan 26, 2021 10:46 pm

I'm glad I noticed this post. I'm in the process of converting a 2016 460 minibus. I've almost got the the stage of contemplating a B2B charging system. My plan is to fit two 100ah EFB batteries. I had planned to connect to the positive and negative of the rear battery (the one at the back of the driver's seat, the first one you get to when you look in behind the seat).
You say that this is the auxiliary one. So maybe this isn't the right one? Or maybe I should be using the CCP anyway? But with the stories I've been seeing about the difficulty of replacing the fuses I want to connect the 30A B2B straight to the battery terminal (with an appropriate fuse of course).

Now, the van's been laid up for a month due to the work. And just this morning the central locking didn't work. Hmm, so that's the aux battery on the way out? I had been using the sliding door for a period (and the electric step of course). So maybe it just needs a bit of charging. And that brings another question - how do you charge the thing? Where do you connect?

And now for yet another question. has anyone experience of fitting a B2B system? And which one do you recommend? I was pondering a Sterling 30A.
Then the question of whether an ignition wire needs to fitted. If so, where does it connect?
Guys, I'm 70. I'm getting too old for this.....
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Re: Smart Alternators

Postby dumper » Wed Jan 27, 2021 12:30 am

I’ve got the Sterling 30 amp to charge two 110 amp leisure batteries I rang Sterling when I first fitted it and they told me that it didn’t need a ignition feed I ran it for 3 years no problem apart from the fuse box I used was not heavy duty enough and running on the standard type blade fuse and was getting hot ( was only supposed to be a temporary) so I got two heavy duty fuse holders with bolt in fuses but when I tested it when back together it wasn’t changing.
Spoke to Sterling again and they said to put a ignition feed on to it so next day I moved the van to get to the van battery's I have a swivel seat so have to remove the seat to get too them on moving the van it started changing again but as I had decided to fit a ignition feed to it I carried on with the job.
On another post on hear it mentions a Ford do a connector lead to do the job it plugs into a connection in the front of the battery box on the left hand side mine was a 4 pin plug some may have a 6 pin plug I didn’t buy the plug what I did was remove the batteries and the battery case to get access to the plug I cut it off and put female red crimp on terminals on then put the batteries back in without the box and used a test light to find out which one to plug in to. the ignition live feed is no 4 in the plug but was difficult to get a tester onto that’s why I cut all the wires off being a tight arse I didn’t want to pay Ford £30 for a lead that I could wire up for pence :lol:
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Past camper vans
1974 mk1 v4 with 2.0 pinto fitted
1986 mk3 2.5 di swb
1990 190 lwb 2.5 di
1998 100 lwb 2.5 di
2006 350 jumbo 135 tdci
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Re: Smart Alternators

Postby johnporter11 » Wed Jan 27, 2021 9:03 am

Dumper, you said it ran for '3 years no problem'. Do you mean it functioned correctly and did everything it was meant to?
The fuses you referred to, are they the main line fuses at the vehicle battery and the leisure battery? I guess you changed the to midi link fuses? You weren't referring to the blade fuse holders for the leisure battery distribution circuits (lights, etc)?
What size cables did you use?
What terminals did you connect the Sterling to? Were they the rear battery (what I now believe to be the auxiliary?) positive and negative?
Does anyone know if it is better to use a chassis ground (i.e. the handbrake bracket nut) or the battery negative terminal?
And finally, does anyone know which is the correct battery to connect to? The auxiliary (rear) battery or the starter (front) battery? The Sterling instruction diagram refers to the 'engine starter battery'. But maybe that just means the 'vehicle' battery, as most vans only have the one.
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Re: Smart Alternators

Postby dumper » Wed Jan 27, 2021 11:36 am

The ran ok fo 3 years point was that I’d used the standard accessory fuse box you get that has what I call the standard blade fuse that was first used in vehicle not the smaller ones that are fitted now I ranthe the Steering on 50 amp blade fuses at both ends of the Steering but I noticed that they had being getting hot over time so I changed them to single heavy duty fuse box with bolt in fuses apart from the fuse box’s showing signs of getting hot I had no problem with it charging.none of this is connected to any of the van electrics this was just the fuse gear I added.

For witch battery to connect too I rang Sterling and they said connect to the starter battery but it would work on the auxiliary battery but I thought the front battery was the auxiliary battery same as mk7 but the mk8 is the rear so mine has been connected to the auxiliary all the time as it worked ok I have left it as is it worked for 3 years ok so I have left it as it was first set up .

This is what 12 volt planet suppled
roduct code: P01454
Part Number: BB1230
"Sterling 'Pro Batt Ultra' Battery-To-Battery Charger - 12V/12V 30A"
Price: £173.45
P00670 5 Product code: P00670
Part Number: TW6B
"Single Core Thin Wall Cable - 6.0mm² 50A"
Colour: Black, Length: By the metre
Price: £1.55
P00672 5 Product code: P00672
Part Number: TW6R
"Single Core Thin Wall Cable - 6.0mm² 50A"
Colour: Red, Length: By the metre
Price: £1.55
My wiring set up is from the van battery + to the fuse box and then to the Steering from it to the second fuse box then too the two 110 amp batteries the - side is van battery to Sterling then from it to the leisure batteries I have not used the chassis as a Earth at all my setup is all wired back to the the leisure batteries and is self contained apart from the connections to the van battery and the now added 12v ignition feed which probably doesn’t need it as if I’d moved the van before checking the charging the Sterling would have kicked in maybe if it doesn’t have a ignition feed it takes a bit longer to start changing.
If you have any problems you can ring Sterling they are very helpful.
Hope this is a bit clearer
MK 8 L4 H3 Motorsport campervan
Past camper vans
1974 mk1 v4 with 2.0 pinto fitted
1986 mk3 2.5 di swb
1990 190 lwb 2.5 di
1998 100 lwb 2.5 di
2006 350 jumbo 135 tdci
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Re: Smart Alternators

Postby johnporter11 » Wed Jan 27, 2021 6:18 pm

Thanks for your detailed reply.
I wonder if anyone can confirm - I think the two batteries are isolated when ignition is off and, when on, the two become connected. If this is the case, then surely they'd be in parallel. And if they are in parallel, would the negative connection not be to the front battery?
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Re: Smart Alternators

Postby dumper » Wed Jan 27, 2021 7:38 pm

When the ignition is off the starter battery is disconnected from the auxiliary battery it runs all the lights central locking power step when the ignition is turned on it connects them together and they stay connected for a time after it is turned off to stop the starter battery being flattened.the batteries have their earth’s they are not linked together only where they are bolted to the chassis not sure where as I have not traced them .
MK 8 L4 H3 Motorsport campervan
Past camper vans
1974 mk1 v4 with 2.0 pinto fitted
1986 mk3 2.5 di swb
1990 190 lwb 2.5 di
1998 100 lwb 2.5 di
2006 350 jumbo 135 tdci
dumper
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