Mk8 corroded brake pipes T460 minibus now a campervan.

[microbill55]

Hi everyone, just had an MOT failure on the front brake pipes (corrosion), with advisory for rears. I'm going to do this myself as garage is too busy and can't fit it in for 2 weeks. Does anyone know the pipe size (3/16"?), the thread (assume 10 x 1 mm?) and the best flare tool to use. I'm going to piece the pipes with couplers, I think , as the mechanic said that's how they would do it. Any tips on best way to go about it would be great.
Cheers, Bill

[dumper]

I’ve always got 3/16 back in the day most of them had metric size on the packaging I used Kunafur as is easy to bend and form the flairs but nowadays every body uses the copper pipe ( don’t get steel pipe ) copper is much easier to form and soft enough that if the flair is not a 100% perfect they tend to seal ok even with a cheap flaring tool what I used to do to get the length right is get a ball of string or wire and trace it along the pipe and cut the length of the pipe I needed to cut and then do the reverse on the new pipe then cut it.
Makes sure you don’t forget to put the nuts on the pipe before you flair it and make sure the fitting is at the flair end before you bend the pipe you will probably have to use a service reset tool or FORscan to bleed the system I have done it in the past with the easy bleed tool but not always.

[metalworker0]

the best flaring tools are the old ones
sykes pacavant or ratcliffe, don't worry about it being imperial or metric ... as the metric ones are imperial with metric measurements written on them - Note: 3/16ths is common to most cars and is also known as 4.75mm and sometines ive see sykes stamp them 5mm

if you choose to buy an old one make sure the central pin is not broken off in the punches... not a problem with some of the newer (newer meaning 20 years old) sykes ones (270 series), as they have a turret with screw in punches that are cheap under £4 each for replacements.
Note: making good flares requires practice and patience - this machine will not make good flares if you don't put some effort and thinking into it, that means not sticking any old badly cut malformed burred piece of copper into it, or not lining things up correctly - the copper requires preparation - de-burring - forming surfaces have to be lubed - knowing how much pressure to apply - practice makes perfect with these machines - read the instructions carefully.

Note: The finished flare is the basic form - Fastening and tightening your newly made brake pipes into position on the vehicle could be called OP3 as then the flare takes its final form.

all the best.mark

[microbill55]

Thanks guys, you pretty much confirmed what I thought. I have a bit of experience from years ago and yes, I have forgotten to put the union on once! Won't be doing that again! I've recently done all the full hard brake lines on a classic car, but that came as a kit in kunifer which had defects on the flares from the manufacturer.......they leaked and I've had to change a couple of lines to copper (again premade, from a different maker). Wish now I'd just done my own then! So, now have the unexpected opportunity (?) to do my own, in copper. I'll look for an old one, but obviously I'm a bit pushed for time now, so may have to use a mid range new one. Never bled the brakes on this so are there pointers to look out for. I'm pretty rubbish on forscan, etc., but if you want an extension building, I'm your man! Any other pearls of wisdom, much appreciated.
Ta, Bill

[gotgcoalman]

One is for "in situ"and the other if you have a vice.

Both give good results with practice.

Although the prices are quite different

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[dumper]

You can get a Draper one from machine mart for about £27 ish blue point by snapon do one and it’s the same design.
Most motor factors will stock the as well
And be careful undoing the bleed nipples

[andz327]

TEMU local warehouse £44


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[dumper]

TEMU local warehouse £44


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Yes andz that’s a much better one then the ones I mentioned looks like a copy of the Sykes pickavant we had at work

[andz327]

yuip looks identical to the SP kit at probably quarter of the price and I'll be getting one shortly maself, although more awkward for cut and joins on vehicle definitely worth that money

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[microbill55]

Thanks everyone for the info. I'll be off today to get one bought and hope for a weather window. I presume it's standard DOT 4 for the top-up.
Cheers Bill.

[metalworker0]

yeah that kit in the above picture looks like a good one .. uses the sykes type punches and has turret, knock off of the 270 series


all the best.mark

[microbill55]

UPDATE: I actually chickened out on the front brake pipes and let the garage do them for me! I noticed more corrosion further up the pipe run so they agreed to replace both font pipes completely. What a job! Whose great idea was it to run them behind the engine? I have no idea what it entailed but it took the mechanic over 5 hours to complete the job, there was a lot of cursing involved too.
Anyway on looking at the back pipes, the access couldn't be easier. Did both pipes myself in less than 1/2 an hour, bled the brakes ( which went hard after 2 pumps) with engine off. On startup, pedal dropped a bit and felt a bit spongy. Do I need to re-bleed them with the engine running, or is that a bad idea?
Any advice appreciated. Cheers, Bill.

[metalworker0]

Whilst replacing the pipes you may have let air into the ABS pump, if so, you need to do a bleed with software running to auto bleed the pump, so to force activation of the pump. i'm told that this may require up to 3 litres of fluid .. but it is possible to stop when you see clear clean fluid and save some fluid and re-feed it in.

forscan and some other diagnostic scanners have this bleed program

With this going on you need two people or a one man bleed system in place like "gunsons eazybleed" .. or other systems

Now the difficult bit, that i know nothing about .. modern systems have on board all manner of things hooked up to the braking system
Electronic Stability Control (ESC/ESP)
Traction Control System (TCS)
Brake Assist System (BAS)
Automatic/Autonomous Emergency Braking (AEB) forward alert

How you do a brake bleed with any of the above in place ..... I do not know if they will cause further problems.

all the best.mark

[microbill55]

Hi Mark thanks for the quick reply. I had read about air in the abs pump, so before I disconnected any pipes I flattened a short section of pipe to both sides, then cut them and bent them over losing only a few drips. The stubs acted as plugs whilst I made the replacements, with only a small fluid loss on re-fitting. I then used the two man method to fill the empty pipe sections and bleed the brakes, filling less than half a jam jar before clean bubble free fluid appeared. I assume the abs pump is at the front of the van, so hoped this method wouldn't cause an abs problem. I have no fault codes on the dash, but I do have a generic code reader. I don't do forscan, as it's a bit beyond me!
I'll bleed them again (engine off) unless someone can offer any further insight, and see what happens.
Bill

[metalworker0]

Note: it is normal for there to be difference in pedal feel engine stopped and engine running .. because of brake booster assistance.

Yes, the pedal will go down when you start it .. it will feel spongier .. how spongier, how far it travels .. I'm not there in the cab with you . so don't know .. how i can convey to you how spongier the pedal can be, i don't know how to give this info .. but the pedal will possibly have 1/5th extra travel to the bite point. older brake master cylinders can bypass the fluid a bit .. so one whole minute pushing very hard on the pedal can have it at the floor... this is knowledge that you get after doing many .. the knowledge that sometimes frightens you into buying a new master cylinder .. this has happened to me ... only to be quite disappointed with a new one only being marginally better. guess in practice with a worn master cylinder on a long hill be prepared to let the pedal go and re-pump.

Almost every servo ABS equipped car has given me a feeling of un-ease with the travel and spongyness of pedals. but there are extremes of what is ok and not ok and that has taken a lifetime to learn.
UMM maybe .. try to do the pedal thing in a few other cars to get the feel on how they feel compared to yours ..

all the best.mark