Starter issue

[ceurieusneus]

To Aardvark

Would it be possible to tell us witch startermotor you took of the Transit and with witch one you replaced it?
In Haynes, I find 5 different starter motors!

If you find a paper in the box witch said: "These vehicles are fitted with a starter relay" and you can't find one, could that be the problem?

To my opinion, this starter needs (at least) the relay to work properly. Ignoring this you could end up with a bad ignition switch.
Perhaps this starter is mend for an older type of Transit.
I suggest you have someone (who knows what he is doing) to have a look at it, and probably the solution is to put in the matching relay.

Always keep in mind leads from the battery, witch are not secured by fuses are a risk to put the Transit on fire!

[Frag]

The later PATS equipped transits, have a yellow relay in the starter circuit.
It's under the metal rivetted shield,covering pats module,up back of dash on passenger side.
This could be more of an inhibit relay tho,being part of PATS system.
The wires to it are heavy enough guage to trigger starter solenoid I think.

Suggest the OP tries substituting battery leads with a jump lead,as I've had issues with battery cables where ends they are crimped on.

[Aardvark]

"Would it be possible to tell us witch startermotor you took of the Transit and with witch one you replaced it?
In Haynes, I find 5 different starter motors!"
The starter I removed, and the new one I installed, look exactly the same. I have no way to insert a photo but basically I am only aware of two types, the large Bosch that seem unavailable these days, and the small one as fitted by Ford toward the end of the production run. Mine say Motorcraft on it so could be a genuine Ford part. (?)

"If you find a paper in the box witch said: "These vehicles are fitted with a starter relay" and you can't find one, could that be the problem?"
Could well be.

"Suggest the OP tries substituting battery leads with a jump lead,as I've had issues with battery cables where ends they are crimped on."
Could be worth a try to see if there is any difference although my battery cables are fat, sound, and have no frayed strands at the crimped ends.

[Frag]

The battery leads that were faulty,looked perfectly fine and had no signs of damage or failure around the crimped ends...
But solenoid on starter would click only,no crank as the main feed wasn't getting to starter.
Clipping leads direct from battery to starter main terminal,and then substituting earth lead in same way may help,
As usual,Would be easier to fix if fault became 'permanent'

[gotgcoalman]

That all sounds very logical, if I still had the van, I would be tempted to upgrade the wiring to include a relay, just to see if it cured the poor starting

or,,,,,,,,

second battery to double the CCA

I have the (extra) relay, the powerful 2.7KW Bosch starter motor and a good 12 Volt 74 AH 680A (EN) battery...
Every time I am surprised how good this engine starts!

Again to my knowlidge
There is absolute no need for a second battery if the first one is OK.
You have zero on the double (ca. 1300cca) cranking power of two battery's if the starter motor needs less than 680!
What you do NOT (NOT) need is losing to much tension (VOLTAGE) in the leads and connections to the starter motor and solenoid.
The higher the current, the lower the tension on the end of the cable! (Basic school electricity)
The higher the resistance in the lead (smaller diameter) or the connections, the bigger the loss and the lower the tension, on the end of the cable ( again basic school electricity)
I hope i have all the words right..., obvious I could explain better in my native language.
Never forget to (in)calculate the losses in the negative - (earth) cable, I try to keep them the same size as the positive + for good results.

In an ideal world it's absoulty correct.

If
Timing is perfect/valves are also. No fuel leak back over night.All wiring is in pristine condition. Oil has just been changed.No residual drag from the gearbox,and battery is delivering what it says it should.
They all start first time every time regardless of temperature.
But

Johnny Worker relies on the van starting on a cold morning and the van is 16+ years old.

[ceurieusneus]

To gotgcoalman, sorry that I contradicted you, but it was for a good coarse...

I spend some off my Sunday time thinking (writing in an other language) to get Johnny Worker on time at the road.

It all started with a "click" and a paper found in the box about a starter relay...
So far I did not read a starter relay was found ??

So please back to the problem... (In an ideal world everybody would keep his attention to the problem)
If there is no (extra) starter relay, could placing an extra starter relay bring the solution?
Have we suggested all the other possibility's? The battery, the alternator current / (Voltage) of the charging, the connections of the earth lead etc.

[ricc]

faulty crimps on the thick battery leads will get hot whilst cranking the engine,,, the plastic coating on the cable next to the crimp may melt or smoke.

the thick positive lead from the battery should go direct to the solenoid on the starter. the thick neg lead from the battery should go straight to the engine block , idealy to one of the starter mounting bolts.

any additional relays , part of pats or whatever should be in the thin wire to the starter solenoid bringing the start message from the ignition key switch. you can normally bypass all this rubbish to test by running a temporary wire from the little terminal on the starter solenoid upto battery pos , just dab it on the battery pos and starter should activate, turning the engine over, youll need to have the ignition turned on for the fuel pump to work for the engine to actually run.

a clunk or clicking from the starter means the solenoid is working to engage the starter but there aint enough volts getting to the motor to start it rotating. either battery , thick leads or starter is faulty, or very rarely the engines siezed solid or got water on top of a piston.

[Aardvark]

"a clunk or clicking from the starter means the solenoid is working to engage the starter but there aint enough volts getting to the motor to start it rotating. either battery , thick leads or starter is faulty, or very rarely the engines siezed solid or got water on top of a piston."

Or that the contacts inside the solenoid that connect the fat positive lead direct to the starter motor are failing. I did get a few more days use out of my old starter by shorting across the large terminals on the solenoid with a screwdriver. I'm just curious why the new starter is also giving just a click on first try and then working fine on the second.

Thanks for your detailed but easy to understand description of the starting circuit. I will go back to basics and eliminate each potential weak spot one by one.

[Islander71]

Would be worth trying a 12v lead direct to the solonoid activating terminal - usually the smallish spade terminal. If it works properly then the fault is bad wiring from ignition switch to solonoid or bad contacts on the ignition switch itself.

[Mfr]

https://www.fordtransit.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=138347&start=15

May be some help, I can recommend http://www.altecautomotive.co.uk/ Get a £10 chefs blow torch and some cable, connectors etc and make some new cables. Doesn't have to be as complicated as I have done it but replacing these made such a huge improvement to starting its well worth it. For a van with a single battery, replacing the battery to alternator cable, battery to starter and a couple of good earths plus connectors should be about £30 or so.

[gotgcoalman]

To gotgcoalman, sorry that I contradicted you, but it was for a good coarse...

I spend some off my Sunday time thinking (writing in an other language) to get Johnny Worker on time at the road.

It all started with a "click" and a paper found in the box about a starter relay...
So far I did not read a starter relay was found ??

So please back to the problem... (In an ideal world everybody would keep his attention to the problem)
If there is no (extra) starter relay, could placing an extra starter relay bring the solution?
Have we suggested all the other possibility's? The battery, the alternator current / (Voltage) of the charging, the connections of the earth lead etc.

No offence taken. We are all trying to find a mean to an end to help the OP.

Clicking of the starter indicates a bad solonoid or the elusive relay.
Checking the solonoid using the "heath robinson" approach.

Remove the "ignition controlled wire" (check this is getting battery voltage with a multi meter first.

WP_20150522_001.jpg

If it is getting 12v+ when key is turned then it's the solonoid or relay not the ignition barrel switch at fault. If clicking is heard then try this. (make sure van is out of gear first)

WP_20150522_003.jpg

Short across the live to the (Big nut) to the other big nut. (bypassing the solonoid)
If the starter engages then it's solonoid or relay problems providing your battery voltage at the "exciter wire" is 12v+

another check is.
Wire to battery + and touch it to the spade terminal (checking for ignition switch fault)
If it turns over with a direct feed from the battery then it's ignition switch on the the barrel.
Again all this has to be done while OUT OF GEAR.

[ricc]

just be carefuk with the screwdriver...you dont want to weld it accross the big nuts... you will at the least probably get a lot of sparks.


inside the solenoid its usually a metal bar that gets pushed accross the ends of the bolts the nig nuts are on that actually completes the circuit, you can get corrosion on both the bar and the bolt ends that stops it passing current .

[Aardvark]

just be carefuk with the screwdriver...you dont want to weld it accross the big nuts... you will at the least probably get a lot of sparks.


inside the solenoid its usually a metal bar that gets pushed accross the ends of the bolts the nig nuts are on that actually completes the circuit, you can get corrosion on both the bar and the bolt ends that stops it passing current .

That is what I suspect was happening with the old starter. I was surprised to find the new one tending to do the same.
I will try some more testing tomorrow and report back if something turns up. So far I have 12.5 volts on the battery at rest, and with engine running I have 14.4 showing a normal input from alternator to the battery.

[gotgcoalman]

12.5 v is the lower end of good for a battery at rest.

Forgot to mention.
You have to be quick with the screwdriver to prevent sparks (providing all battery connections are good)

As said the solonoid acts as a relay in a previous post.

AND the new starter had been sat for a while.

The "plunger" in the solonoid of both starters will more than likely be stuck.

The origonal from use and the "new one" from being being stored in a less than "climate controlled" enviroment?

[baxi]

had problem on a 1997 190 di with key not engaging starter , if it did not start first time , try key again - once it took 3 goes then started , worried it let me down one day but it went away - never found out what it was , my son had a new key cut with chip in and got lots of problems ( pats system ) we were told so bypassed it , now works fine .