Ford transit 2.4 TDCI 140 Overheat/too hot

[Burn2]

Hello, so it would be better to summarize all in one topic.

Context:
The car is a transit 2.4TDCI 140 from 2008.
It's a camping car truck, so something with more then 3m tall, near 7m long and witn near 3T or 3.5t. (Don t forget this point)
The car got short gear, so in 6 at 110km/h in 6 you are at 3000T/min. (At 80km/h you are near 2000T/min in 6)
Car does not move on the winter and go be parked more then 3 mouth with not moving.

Just to refresh the memory, on the 2.4 tdci, there is only a CHT sensor, no ECT/EOT sensor. it calculate from CHT sensor. (for ECT it seems it based on the difference between 2 cht value + it's temp. So it follow it with time)
The gauge on the panel will move when ECT sensor calculated increase to 115°. If you are in 113° calculated, it will be in the middle... So you could not see if it's hot before.
At 120° ECT it will go to the maximum right position.
When CHT sensor is at 132°, engine cut off in security mode with overheat led.
Iat sensor is on MAF sensor and is the outside temp.
Iat2 sensor is on MAP sensor, and is the temp of the compressed air just before engine (after turbo + intercooler).




I) The problem
The problematic road to have in idea, is a looong hill from near 20/30km of hill with something 5% continues, you clim to 1000M.

The first time the problem appear was in 2015, on summer near 35° outside in a hill in highway. We got sun in front of us and were driving with the regulator at 110km/h, so we do not see the gauge moving.
Suddenly the car shutdown, we could only stop on the right of the highway and wait. The temp gauge was in the right red position (120°). I check the coolant: it was boiling but no lost of coolant.
So clearly a real Overheat problem
After a moment we could go again and no more any problem.

At this time 2015, as it never happen before, and that it never happen again since the next summer, we think that was our fault we drive too fast with hot temp. Nothing particular.

But in 2016, in the next summer, in same condition, we climb this hill slower, take care not to be at maximum charge, but even like that i see the gauge jumping to the right at the top of the hill.
We did not overheat, but it was limit.
We ask to the Ford mecanic to take a look. They test and see nothing! All is "ok" for them.
Since this date for this hill it's more and more difficult to climb it, we are at the limit even if i slow down etc.
I Since 2017, i have things to check ODB temp, so i use forscan and read the sensor to check sometime, and alwasys use it on this hill in summer.


II) THe result:
I could climb this hill when temp is < 25°, it will be hot but it's "ok". (CHT Temp near 120°) So when you are not it summer, perhaps it would be hot, but you would never see it, and do not have risk to overheat.
IF temp is > 28°, you will be at the limit. (gauge will jump sometimes, CHT sensor will be more then 120°)
When temp is more then 30°, it's really really difficult to climb!
For example the last year (2022) with 27°/28° (based on IAT temp) i got a 129° CHT and ect calculated was 113°. So clearly we was near overheating. And i could only pass maintain full throttle, it seems less overheat when on full throttle.
Slow down does not help, even at 80km/h in 5.

On other highway at 27° outside but with not long hill, i could read sometimes 119° at CHT sensor (in some hill), and more then 105° on the ECT calculated, for me it seems to be too hot. (but not overheat of course)
On road it will never overheat but CHT sensor could be more then 100°. (note critical there, just a little bit hot sometimes)

At 27° when you maintain a speed i would say for CHT sensor:
I got 100/110° on highway
I got 90/100° on road.
When you accelerate it climb progressively to +10°. So if you are at 90°, you will go to 100° etc.
On idle, it will never increase. You got something between 87 to 92°. It's impossible to make it climb when not in road.

For me even if i do not overheat, temp seems to be too hot on all the road on summer. But ford dealer never find anything.
I change mechanic and we try to find the solution.
The problem seams to increase since the beginning but outside temp increase too.

[Burn2]

II) What we change
A) not related to the problem
* VCT valve (2022): Idle was rought, we change the valve. Problem solve. But not sure the mecanic did the good procedure, particularly if it include the injector learn procedure (it's not a ford dealer now as i was not happy with it) ==> It solve the rought idle
* EGR valve (2021): We got Check engine lite, with P0299/P0234 DTC code. ==> It solve this problem after the replacement and never happen again

B) Related to the problem
* We replace the calorstat (2022) ==> No change
* We replace the Water pump + Clutch (2023) ==> The pump was more then 10 year old, more then 160 000km. They were a plastic lock in the watter pump but does not seems to be the reason, does not seems to change anything.
* We flush all the circus, and used a cleaning product (before replacing the water pump) to clean all the circus ==> Nothing new, everything seems to be ok


III) We are going to change:
* Viscous: i made a test, it seems to cool, but does not really engage.
To have an idea, at outside of 30° with hot engine, CHT temp was at 87°. I could siop it with no problem, and could keep it, it never really engage (i found it hesitate but not really engage). Cht Sensor progressively increase to 97°, all was really hot in the engine compartment. The down pipe of the radiator was really hot. For me it should have been engaged, did not wait more.
I let it go, and temp goes back to 87° in less then 30seconds so it seems to partially work. ==> But that should not help at 110km/h i know so should not help for the problem.



IV) What could be the problem???
* CHT sensor, it was ok the first time but dead now? From the over discussion and from what happen ==> i doupt
* Clogged radiator? IT's the question, could not be sure, the viscous test, show that it seems to work, but difficiult to know if all the radiator work.
* Head gasket? It's the question. I got no symptom. No lost of coolant, no pressure in the coolant system on cold coolant is clean. But i have see case where it was that, with no symptom. It's a metallic gasket so it could be clogged in some part with no leak.
* Oil Cooler? I know that some got oil calorstat that could be locked too. Not sure if mine got it. I do not know how to test this. But i do not have oil in the coolant system, and no coolant in the oil system. If it was the problem, would it be possible to have a boiling coolant like the first time?
* Injector/pump learn problem? Could it be possible??? I do not have any DTC error.
==> When taking care of that with forscan, i see difference between FRP and FRP_DMD that could happen when you change acceleration, just at the begining but not when you maintain (so could be normal or no? I should never see more then 10%? )
==> When taking care of that with forscan, i see CylBal_X(mg) that are sometimes in more then 2.5mg but it's not only one injector, sometimes it the 1, sometimes other etc.


The problem seems to be worse then at the beginning, so it's more and more problematic. (but outside temp increase so could be that too... )
Could not know if the problem was there at the beginning because of gauge that only move at 115° ect, so if i was at 113° in 2014 or before, could not know...


Do you have over idea?

[Airthies]

Get a compression test done on each cylinder. It could possibly be a blown head gasket between two cylinders.

If it is,this will pass hot gas between cylinders and also reduce compression in cylinders.

The gasket can fail between cylinders but no other leaks of coolant or oil.

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[Burn2]

Yep that was what i was thinking too for possibility in head gasket.

[tranmx2]

Power loss, indicated high working temperature.

The age/conditon of the vehicle the enviroment in which it is used affects the functionality of the vehicle.
Worn or dirty parts are detremental to the performance of the engine/vehicle.

Elimination: limit/eliminate the possible contributors to the malfunction.
Worn bearings, brakes, UVs, differential, tyres, wheel alighment. Vehicle weight. Air inlet tract. Accumulated dirt, hot spots.

[Burn2]

We do not find power loss in driving condition.

The age/conditon of the vehicle the enviroment in which it is used affects the functionality of the vehicle.
Worn or dirty parts are detremental to the performance of the engine/vehicle.
I know that, that's why a clogged radiator is a possibility as the car stay a lot of time with not driving all the winter.

Worn bearings, brakes, UVs, differential, tyres, wheel alighment. Vehicle weight. Air inlet tract. Accumulated dirt, hot spots.
Wheel alignment are ok, no break problem. Radiator/intercooler are "clean" outside, so not dirt accumulated.
Weight, well, as i said, it's a camping car, so well yes it's really heavy! On full load should be near 3.5t, but it was the case from the beginning, and it's the case of all the Camper.

[tranmx2]

Sorry I read some of the comments as power loss.

I have already test to put heat to maximum in the cabin, but it change nothing, temp does not low. (but it was before the replacement of the water pump)
Air was hot but i would not say "burning" air.
B) Related to the problem
* We replace the calorstat (2022) ==> No change
* We replace the Water pump + Clutch (2023) ==> The pump was more then 10 year old, more then 160 000km. They were a plastic lock in the watter pump but does not seems to be the reason, does not seems to change anything.
* We flush all the circus, and used a cleaning product (before replacing the water pump) to clean all the circus ==> Nothing new, everything seems to be ok.
Are you sure it is the correct calorstat (thermostat) does it have the same opening temp as the old one?
Inside the thermostat on my 2.2 E5 there is a spring and plunger - not the spring behind the thermostat - it is the bypass spring and plunger - if it malfunctions coolant may not bypass to the water pump .
On mine the spring was broken and plunger displaced. The thermostat needs to be the correct one.

Open main open bypass.png

Your thermostat (calorstat) could be different.

Was the water pump the same as the one that was taken off did it fit the same way, was there any debri (tissue rag) left inside the passageways?

The coolant system might be the same as on the 2.2.
The image is not correct as there is no EGR fitted to my engine.
The pipes to and from the cab heater are not routed the same on my engine as they are on an engine with the EGR and EGR cooler.

Cab htr shtr system dwg.png

I have known parts stores to send the wrong items.
There are some videos on youtube re' thermostats. Be sure the information is for the type of thermostat on your engine.

[Airthies]

Just do a cylinder compression test and see what the results are. Then go from there.

There's plenty others replaced loads of parts costing £££€€€ and still never solved the issue.

If this issue has gradually been getting worse then it is quite likely the head gasket is blowing more with each overheating.

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[tranmx2]

Cylinder pressure test shows the state of the cylinder/piston etc at the time of doing the test.
Temperature and pressure can change the state of the cylinder/piston etc.

[Burn2]

Sorry I read some of the comments as power loss.

I have already test to put heat to maximum in the cabin, but it change nothing, temp does not low. (but it was before the replacement of the water pump)
Air was hot but i would not say "burning" air.
B) Related to the problem
* We replace the calorstat (2022) ==> No change
* We replace the Water pump + Clutch (2023) ==> The pump was more then 10 year old, more then 160 000km. They were a plastic lock in the watter pump but does not seems to be the reason, does not seems to change anything.
* We flush all the circus, and used a cleaning product (before replacing the water pump) to clean all the circus ==> Nothing new, everything seems to be ok.
Are you sure it is the correct calorstat (thermostat) does it have the same opening temp as the old one?
Inside the thermostat on my 2.2 E5 there is a spring and plunger - not the spring behind the thermostat - it is the bypass spring and plunger - if it malfunctions coolant may not bypass to the water pump .
On mine the spring was broken and plunger displaced. The thermostat needs to be the correct one.

Open main open bypass.png

Your thermostat (calorstat) could be different.

Was the water pump the same as the one that was taken off did it fit the same way, was there any debri (tissue rag) left inside the passageways?

The coolant system might be the same as on the 2.2.
The image is not correct as there is no EGR fitted to my engine.
The pipes to and from the cab heater are not routed the same on my engine as they are on an engine with the EGR and EGR cooler.

Cab htr shtr system dwg.png

I have known parts stores to send the wrong items.
There are some videos on youtube re' thermostats. Be sure the information is for the type of thermostat on your engine.

Hello, i could not be sure about the calorstat the mechanic a change from his reference.
I know that it's a 88° like before. But could not be sure about the model. But what sure is the problem was here before the replacement (and the original was the ford one), and that the down pipe of the radiator come hot when engine is hot. So seems to work normally. It's not worse then before.
They only exist a 82° thermostat but i doubt it would change something if coolant is already hot.

The pump is not the same because it's not an ford part. I think It's a GATE water pump. (seems to have longer blade they says)
But of course it fit in the same way, and no problem to plug it.
The plastic part was not something dying, more a peace of a bottle cap, and was between 2 blade, just locked inside so normally it was not doing anything.

I do not think the 2.4 tdci has this 2 level of calorstat. I don t know how to be sure about that but when i took a look on shop, it seems to be a simple calorstat.
After the cleaning of the cooling system + water pump change, the heat in the cabin seems to be hotter then before (more constant i will say) i will test again, but before putting hot air does not cool the temperature, CHT was at the same temp.
But has i said, as bottom radiator pipe become hot when needed, and that engine idle at 87°, it seems to work normally on idle.

Just do a cylinder compression test and see what the results are. Then go from there.
There's plenty others replaced loads of parts costing £££€€€ and still never solved the issue.
If this issue has gradually been getting worse then it is quite likely the head gasket is blowing more with each overheating.
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I have ask to the machanic to do that, but he say that if it was that, i would feel it on drive, with wrong "song", or engine running on two cylinder (so no power) and that's not the case, so he does not believe that for the moment.

[Airthies]

I have ask to the machanic to do that, but he say that if it was that, i would feel it on drive, with wrong "song", or engine running on two cylinder (so no power) and that's not the case, so he does not believe that for the moment.

I have experienced this exact fault along with others with similar symptoms. All have had the gasket fail between cylinders.
During normal running it is not noticeable and under load the added boost from the turbo forces hot gasses between cylinders. It does not necessarily mean you see a loss in performance. Only at the point it starts overheating.

All the engines I've known to have symptoms like this, when the cylinder head is removed the gasket is complete but damaged, there is uneven surface of the aluminium head and on the cast block between cilinder walls.

My engine had .007" removed from the surface of the engine block to make the wall between cylinders flat again

If I can find the pictures I'll post them.

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[tranmx2]

During normal running it is not noticeable and under load the added boost from the turbo forces hot gasses between cylinders. It does not necessarily mean you see a loss in performance. Only at the point it starts overheating.

A head gasket leak between cylinders shall be noticed by rough running of the engine. A head gasket leak to the coolant may not result in rough running, bubbles might/maybe seen in the coolant. A head gasket leak to the oil system can show as pressure at the rocker box cap which could also show as rough running due to the gasses entering the inlet tract via the rocker box vent.
Turbo boost does not force gasses between cylinders in the sense that the turbo boost is the cause of the gaskets deterioration - detonation of the air fuel mix can - the amount of air in the mix can alter the pressure generated.
Pressurised air entering a cylinder with a damaged gasket could pass into the next cylinder which could result in rough running of the engine.
On a multi cylinder engine the damaged gasket is likely to allow gasses/air to pass between both cylinders - each way.

[Airthies]

During normal running it is not noticeable and under load the added boost from the turbo forces hot gasses between cylinders. It does not necessarily mean you see a loss in performance. Only at the point it starts overheating.

A head gasket leak between cylinders shall be noticed by rough running of the engine. A head gasket leak to the coolant may not result in rough running, bubbles might/maybe seen in the coolant. A head gasket leak to the oil system can show as pressure at the rocker box cap which could also show as rough running due to the gasses entering the inlet tract via the rocker box vent.
Turbo boost does not force gasses between cylinders in the sense that the turbo boost is the cause of the gaskets deterioration - detonation of the air fuel mix can - the amount of air in the mix can alter the pressure generated.
Pressurised air entering a cylinder with a damaged gasket could pass into the next cylinder which could result in rough running of the engine.
On a multi cylinder engine the damaged gasket is likely to allow gasses/air to pass between both cylinders - each way.

Do you Google explanations and regurgitate them here to split hairs?
Or do you normally talk like a textbook?

So being pedantic... no, the boost alone is not precisely responsible for the increase in temperature.
Let me try and spell it out for you...


If traveling at 70mph along a flat road,(for arguments sake the vehicle has cruise control and is being kept at a constant speed) vehicle temperature is normal and consistent. With no noticeable difference in performance.

If then a hill is encountered the increase in load due to traveling uphill the engine increases its fuel delivery and subsequently an increase in boost is also seen.

This increases cylinder temperature and pressure at the point of ignition to provide more power to keep the vehicle at a constant speed.

That increase causes more transfer between cylinders and poorer combustion which the engine management system tries to compensate for by increasing fuel delivery to the poorer performing cylinder thus compounding the issue.

So if everything has been changed at great expense and no discernible difference has been made to the issue then options are running out.

Either pull the cylinder head off to inspect the head gasket or do a cylinder compression test.

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[tranmx2]

The OP has stated there was no power loss.

The OP dispelled the idea of a leak between cylynders by refering to the mechanic.

This discussion does not reflect the problem the OP has put forward.

You seem to believe that a leak between cylinders exists.
What is the likely result of injecting more fuel when a low compression state exists?

[Airthies]

The OP has stated there was no power loss.

Never said there would be at normal temperature.

The OP dispelled the idea of a leak between cylynders by refering to the mechanic.

and I'm swiss cheese?

This discussion does not reflect the problem the OP has put forward.

I've done nothing but point to a possible cause which has not been tested, but is a documented (though not common) failure which all the symptoms point too.

You seem to believe that a leak between cylinders exists.
What is the likely result of injecting more fuel when a low compression state exists?

Heat!

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