Been nabbed by the police for illegal towing

[hillman]

Well done to vannut, keep at them, we need to know were we stand on this issue!!!!

[manandvan]

hi just a little iterjection here, re lanny,s rangeys and disco,s: any of them used commercially i.e. paying customer/hire reward would be subject to tacho and operator licence once over 3.5 ton gross never mind 5ton whatever train weight,
so you 3.2 gross transit with an unladen weight of say 2 ton can only pull a 1.5 gross trailer legally without tacho even if the vans train weight is 5 ton whatever. and rightly so!! lost cound of the number of times ive seen big trailers on small cars all over the motorway because "the tail wags the dog" as its put.

[ginsambo]

So you're saying I can't use my 5500kg plated train weight pickup to pull a 1.5 tonne minidigger and 500kg trailer for work?
Is that hire and reward? Or are you talking about recovery transport and specific point to point delivery jobs etc.? I thought over 5500kg was a tacho job, not 3500kg?

Regarding trailer size/weight, I've only ever been scared when I pulled a 15' farm trailer loaded with 22 packed hay which weighed about 3 tonne+ I reckon. Even when the bed of a transit pickup is loaded, a big/heavy trailer will still kick the back wheels of the pickup across or up off the road, which means you've really only got the front wheels and trailer wheels in contact with the ground....not good and you can get some really interesting pendulum effects....and with 75ps you can't power out of it, straight line wise, either, in fact usually you slow down at the worst possible time with that engine, then the results are.. well even more interesting

[vannut]

hi just a little iterjection here, re lanny,s rangeys and disco,s: any of them used commercially i.e. paying customer/hire reward would be subject to tacho and operator licence once over 3.5 ton gross never mind 5ton whatever train weight,
so you 3.2 gross transit with an unladen weight of say 2 ton can only pull a 1.5 gross trailer legally without tacho even if the vans train weight is 5 ton whatever. and rightly so!! lost cound of the number of times ive seen big trailers on small cars all over the motorway because "the tail wags the dog" as its put.

To an extent this is correct, any vehicle towing a trailer used for carrying goods becomes a 'goods vehicle' and if the goods are carried in the course of a business, and the Maximum authorised Mass, (in this case, the train weight) is over 3500kgs then a tachograph is required.

It doesn't have to be for hire or reward, just in the course of a business.

As regards operators licence, it does not apply to 'small trailers', i.e. trailers with an unladen weight of less than 1020kgs. Most car transporters are less than this, they usually weigh about 600kg.



Operators

[MinorMatt]

No... its for hire or reward... ie. if you are being paid to move the item from one point to another.

If its your own goods - even in the course of business - your fine

[vannut]

No... its for hire or reward... ie. if you are being paid to move the item from one point to another.

If its your own goods - even in the course of business - your fine

No you aren't.

If you look at this document: http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/freight/road/ ... sgoods.pdf

at pages 9 and 10, it states the following:

"The EU rules (Regulation (EC) 561/2006) apply to drivers of most vehicles used for the carriage of goods
(including dual purpose vehicles) where the maximum permissible weight of the vehicle, including any
trailer or semi-trailer, exceeds 3.5 tonnes and where the vehicle is used within the UK or between the
UK and other EU and EEA countries and Switzerland. Vehicle operations that take place off the public
road or vehicles that are never used to carry goods on a public road are out of scope. "

Under exemptions, it states the following:

"Vehicles or combinations of vehicles with a maximum permissible mass not exceeding 7.5 tonnes used for
the non-commercial carriage of goods.

Examples could include a person moving house and goods carried by a non-profit making group
or registered charity. "

There are several other examples given, but none include the carriage of goods in the course of a business, but not for hire or reward. Hire or reward would affect which type of operators licence was required, i.e. Standard or Restricted, but not tachographs.

[ME]

I will say we used to tow exhibition trailers under one the "Exemptions" but i have been informed that that has now been changed.

[dark legend]

Is it a legal requirement to have a VIN plate with your weights displayed on your vehicle? It's not for MOT as long as it's stamped on the chassis. I took mine off when I removed the step plastic and haven't put it back on / don't carry it.

You do need a plate on your trailer if it was built post 1982. Or should I say :

1982 regulations demand that all trailers, including unbraked ones, must be clearly marked with their maximum gross weight in kg. This may be checked at any time by the police at a weighbridge. Since 1st January 1997, all unbraked trailer plates must show the year of manufacture

Useful website:
http://www.ntta.co.uk/law/index.htm

[manandvan]

hi all, this is a very complex issue and its nice to see that we are all learning from this and no one is being an unproductive smart arse,with stupid comments that bring forums down.

big round of applause to vannut for his efforts and everyone else who has contributed

[vannut]

hi all, this is a very complex issue and its nice to see that we are all learning from this and no one is being an unproductive smart arse,with stupid comments that bring forums down.

I had been thinking that very thought myself!

Just to let you know guys, I haven't forgotten about this. Been away in Cornwall. Back on to it soon!

Incidentally, averaged 33.4mpg in the Lexus over the whole trip, including pottering round the Cornish lanes, just under 1000 miles in all! Not bad for a 4 litre V8! That's the engine to put in a Transit!

[ginsambo]

Maybe but what is your Lexus's Kerb Weight?

[vannut]

Maybe but what is your Lexus's Kerb Weight?

1815kg

[BANANAVAN]

Not sure if this has been posted before but with the talk earlier about the various classifications on driving licences I thought I would add this

I read on another forum that if you have to get a new photo licence for any reason i.e. change of address, the new licence will be returned to you with the towing and 7.5t entitlements removed unless you include a note with your application stating that you require them.

I was a bit dubious at first but my mate checked his licence and sure enough the entitlements are removed even though he passed his test in 1990, he has been towing a generator welder with his works van illegally for about a year now and will have to pay for a new licence to get the entitlements back.

I am moving house tomorrow so am very glad this thread jogged my memory.

Thanks to everyone who has contributed to resolving this problem, I hope we get a definitive answer as I tow a car transporter now and again.

Cheers

[WildGoose]

Been reading this with interest. Look forward to any more input, as it does seem most of us are massively confused by the requirements.

When I first aquired my transit, and after reading up about towing, I had concluded (and I am not saying that I am or was correct) that you could tow from the current weight of the van I.e. kerb weight + any payload up to the maximum train weight.

Given that for my '95 SWB 120 the specs are as follows:

Gross Vehicle Weight (or MAM just to make things more complicated) 2830kg
Gross Train Weight 3500kg
Kerb Weight 1600kg approx.

By my original assumption (Gross Train Weight minus Kerb Weight = Max trailer weight) this would give me 1900kg towing capacity.

Going by VOSA's current interpretation of the rules (Gross Train Weight minus Gross Vehicle Weight = Max trailer weight) this would give me 670kg towing capacity, not even enough to tow the maximum authorised weight for an unbraked trailer, which is pathetic.

It appears that this;
http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/vehicle ... ortrailers

and this;
http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/vehicle ... uently4577

Directly contradict one another, despite claiming to be a clear and concise explanation of the rules . The trailer requirements page states that there is no relationship between vehicle and trailer weight in UK law, and also I read it as saying that if you do not exceed the gross vehicle weight, gross trailer weight or gross train weight, then you are legal (which is not what VOSA seem to be saying currently).

The other FAQ page for cars and light vehicles states:

So if for example you have a car with a maximum weight of 2180 kg and a train weight of 3980 kg the maximum towing capacity will be 3980 kg minus 2180 kg which gives a towing capacity of 1800kg

Which seems more in line with VOSA's view, but doesnt make sense when read after the "trailer requirements" page.

As an aside, I passed several Scottish and Southern Energy transits today whilst I was pondering this, they were fitted with towbars, they were beefy medium/long wheel base jobs with semi high roofs, they had big stickers near the towbar stating "maximum trailer weight 2250kg". This would suggest that they have researched the towing capacity rules and decided to take it seriously. It also suggests that maybe transits aren't capable to be towing anywhere near 3500kg by the book, regardless of what in reality they are physically are capable of towing, and safely.

I salute your efforts vannut, you wouldn't catch me paying the extortionate price of set of construction and use regs.

[bj928]

Been reading this with interest. Look forward to any more input, as it does seem most of us are massively confused by the requirements.

When I first aquired my transit, and after reading up about towing, I had concluded (and I am not saying that I am or was correct) that you could tow from the current weight of the van I.e. kerb weight + any payload up to the maximum train weight.

Given that for my '95 SWB 120 the specs are as follows:

Gross Vehicle Weight (or MAM just to make things more complicated) 2830kg
Gross Train Weight 3500kg
Kerb Weight 1600kg approx.

By my original assumption (Gross Train Weight minus Kerb Weight = Max trailer weight) this would give me 1900kg towing capacity.








Going by VOSA's current interpretation of the rules (Gross Train Weight minus Gross Vehicle Weight = Max trailer weight) this would give me 670kg towing capacity, not even enough to tow the maximum authorised weight for an unbraked trailer, which is pathetic.

It appears that this;
http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/vehicle ... ortrailers

and this;
http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/vehicle ... uently4577

Directly contradict one another, despite claiming to be a clear and concise explanation of the rules . The trailer requirements page states that there is no relationship between vehicle and trailer weight in UK law, and also I read it as saying that if you do not exceed the gross vehicle weight, gross trailer weight or gross train weight, then you are legal (which is not what VOSA seem to be saying currently).

The other FAQ page for cars and light vehicles states:

So if for example you have a car with a maximum weight of 2180 kg and a train weight of 3980 kg the maximum towing capacity will be 3980 kg minus 2180 kg which gives a towing capacity of 1800kg

Which seems more in line with VOSA's view, but doesnt make sense when read after the "trailer requirements" page.

As an aside, I passed several Scottish and Southern Energy transits today whilst I was pondering this, they were fitted with towbars, they were beefy medium/long wheel base jobs with semi high roofs, they had big stickers near the towbar stating "maximum trailer weight 2250kg". This would suggest that they have researched the towing capacity rules and decided to take it seriously. It also suggests that maybe transits aren't capable to be towing anywhere near 3500kg by the book, regardless of what in reality they are physically are capable of towing, and safely.

I salute your efforts vannut, you wouldn't catch me paying the extortionate price of set of construction and use regs.

the reason the scottish power vans will have the sticker on, is because most the time these guys run around fully freighted at 3.5t, so can only tow the 2250kg thats left upto there gtw, so full or empty they are inside gtw.

also, as i was told by a vosa friend of mine who inspects at the roadside checks, as long as axles weights, GTW and GVW are within vin weights all is ok,

don't forget rules for cars and comercial are different, cars normally get a max tow weight, comercials get gvw, gtw and axle weights to go by, a transit with windows runs under different road rules for a lot of things to one without windows, eg, a swb van on single carrageway 50mph, same van with windows (minibus/camper) 60mph, this i guess is where the confusion is coming from, as well as different people/organisations reading the info differently,

i personaly will stick to axle weights and gtw when i'm towing.