Epic to Bosch pump conversion

[alanwh]

Went to collect the pump from Burnley on Friday morning and started the job in the afternoon.
First job was to remove the PATS, then a slight ignition modification which was thankfully much easier than I had anticipated. I mounted the pump with the three studs at the front and two studs on the rear bracket to block mounting. I had been given advice to use the Bosch injector pipes but the original Epic pipes fitted well, with only little careful bending at the fuel pump union ends required. A trip to the local scrappers was required as I hadn’t accounted for the epic and bosch pump fuel unions been different. The Bosch is a banjo fitting, the epic is a male screw in nipple.
I blanked off the EGR by undoing the union between the valve and the inlet manifold, removing the gasket and using it as a template to cut out blanking plate from a piece of thin Aluminium.
I wasn’t sure what to do about the throttle butterfly located just in the inlet manifold after the Red flexi -connector. It was sprung in the open position so to make sure it stayed there without the help of the Epic, I fixed it in place with the aid of a self tapper.
Next job was to fit the new belt and tensioner, making sure that there was full tension on the belt especially between cam and crank pulley, which had a tendency to sag a tooth too slack. I achieved good tension between the two without scuffing knuckles by rotating the crank half a tooth enough to get on the belt then rotating the crank back and popping the timing pin back in. The Pump Pulley was positioned with the timing pin in place and the pulley bolts in the middle of the elongated slots allowing me a few degrees of retard and advance to play with.
I then fitted the manual throttle pedal, cable and linkage to the pump.
Start up was a twenty minute affair. Systematically cracking the feed to the injectors, starting, bleeding, tightening and then repeating. The van started with a lot of smoke of unburned diesel after a few attempts. I ran for no more that 10 secs then switched off. I then started to adjust the pump by a degree at a time. I achieved this by slackening off the pump to pulley bolts then rotating the shaft of the pump clockwise. I wanted to achieve a balance of quick startup from cold with least smoke, good idle and less soot on throttle which after a few attempts was achieved with the bolts being at the very right end of the slots. I left the van overnight, as I wanted to check it would start at this setting from first cold. She started first turn of the key the next morning so I torque and thread-locked everything into place. Timing cover and belts were replaced, new coolant added and the radiator mounted.
I turned up the pump fueling by a turn and a half and took her out for a run, wow what a revelation, the mid range torque is awesome, she pulled up the A61 into Birdwell in 5th from 30 and gained all the way up the hill to a good 60MPH. Down the Parkway at 80 MPH was a breeze with more to spare. Personally I don’t believe its geared to go much above this speed so that was the limit… The Temp guage even works !!
Back at the ranch I noticed she was smoking quite a lot just before full boost (and on back off) until the turbo supplied enough air to burn off the extra fuel. I backed off the fuelling until the smoke was under control.
The Bro. Is going to be using the van for the next few weeks until his LT is back from the dealers so fingers crossed and wish him luck.
And lets hope the smiley keeps on smiling 

Will keep you posted !

[alanwh]

Some piccies for you,

Theres a pic of the so called filter conversion. Apparently the garage said the originals were prone to cracking and letting air in ??!!

I blocked off the EGR just before alloy manifold in the pic.


http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii13 ... ley005.jpg
http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii13 ... ley004.jpg
http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii13 ... ley003.jpg

[AlanN]

Some piccies for you,

Theres a pic of the so called filter conversion. Apparently the garage said the originals were prone to cracking and letting air in ??!!

I blocked off the EGR just before alloy manifold in the pic.

if you highlight each picture URL then click img from the menu in th eposting box it will show your photos like this...

[alanwh]

Ah I did wonder about that one...Thanks Al !

[AlanN]

every little helps

[alanwh]

Forgot to say... The pump number for future reference is 0460-414-145 686-2
In the last month or so that Ive spoke to quite a few people who have installed and run any old banana pump on these conversions to sell them on. A guy from Riverside Auto's who services old smileys all day says he has even seen conversions coming in with the little pumps on them.

Not wanting a bodge I have installed this pump as best advice seems to suggest the 145/146 686 is the only pump up to the fuelling requirements of the 100PS.
and this one works well,

Anyone done a successful conversion with any other pumps ?

[alanwh]

Completed the leak off mod last weekend.
The leak off pipes were in a right state, so they were all replaced as well.
Tappet adjustment and new hybrid pump coming weekend after next..WITH PICTURES

[chrissy]

Went to collect the pump from Burnley on Friday morning and started the job in the afternoon.
First job was to remove the PATS, then a slight ignition modification which was thankfully much easier than I had anticipated. I mounted the pump with the three studs at the front and two studs on the rear bracket to block mounting. I had been given advice to use the Bosch injector pipes but the original Epic pipes fitted well, with only little careful bending at the fuel pump union ends required. A trip to the local scrappers was required as I hadn’t accounted for the epic and bosch pump fuel unions been different. The Bosch is a banjo fitting, the epic is a male screw in nipple.
I blanked off the EGR by undoing the union between the valve and the inlet manifold, removing the gasket and using it as a template to cut out blanking plate from a piece of thin Aluminium.
I wasn’t sure what to do about the throttle butterfly located just in the inlet manifold after the Red flexi -connector. It was sprung in the open position so to make sure it stayed there without the help of the Epic, I fixed it in place with the aid of a self tapper.
Next job was to fit the new belt and tensioner, making sure that there was full tension on the belt especially between cam and crank pulley, which had a tendency to sag a tooth too slack. I achieved good tension between the two without scuffing knuckles by rotating the crank half a tooth enough to get on the belt then rotating the crank back and popping the timing pin back in. The Pump Pulley was positioned with the timing pin in place and the pulley bolts in the middle of the elongated slots allowing me a few degrees of retard and advance to play with.
I then fitted the manual throttle pedal, cable and linkage to the pump.
Start up was a twenty minute affair. Systematically cracking the feed to the injectors, starting, bleeding, tightening and then repeating. The van started with a lot of smoke of unburned diesel after a few attempts. I ran for no more that 10 secs then switched off. I then started to adjust the pump by a degree at a time. I achieved this by slackening off the pump to pulley bolts then rotating the shaft of the pump clockwise. I wanted to achieve a balance of quick startup from cold with least smoke, good idle and less soot on throttle which after a few attempts was achieved with the bolts being at the very right end of the slots. I left the van overnight, as I wanted to check it would start at this setting from first cold. She started first turn of the key the next morning so I torque and thread-locked everything into place. Timing cover and belts were replaced, new coolant added and the radiator mounted.
I turned up the pump fueling by a turn and a half and took her out for a run, wow what a revelation, the mid range torque is awesome, she pulled up the A61 into Birdwell in 5th from 30 and gained all the way up the hill to a good 60MPH. Down the Parkway at 80 MPH was a breeze with more to spare. Personally I don’t believe its geared to go much above this speed so that was the limit… The Temp guage even works !!
Back at the ranch I noticed she was smoking quite a lot just before full boost (and on back off) until the turbo supplied enough air to burn off the extra fuel. I backed off the fuelling until the smoke was under control.
The Bro. Is going to be using the van for the next few weeks until his LT is back from the dealers so fingers crossed and wish him luck.
And lets hope the smiley keeps on smiling 

Will keep you posted !

when you was timing up the pump and the holes ended up at the right end of the slots would this mean that the ''timing pin'' on pump did not lined up when you it was finaly set ,,but was slightly advanced ?? converted my td today and i made the mistake of setting pulley on pump at right end of slot before i fitted it ,,then lined pins up ,,, i think i have to advance 1 tooth do you follow me

[Guy88]

To set it you do the timing as normal then remove the pin from the pump and tap one of the bolts to take it to the end of the slots to fully advance it

[ob1cnoby]

Forgot to say... The pump number for future reference is 0460-414-145 686-2
In the last month or so that Ive spoke to quite a few people who have installed and run any old banana pump on these conversions to sell them on. A guy from Riverside Auto's who services old smileys all day says he has even seen conversions coming in with the little pumps on them.

Not wanting a bodge I have installed this pump as best advice seems to suggest the 145/146 686 is the only pump up to the fuelling requirements of the 100PS.
and this one works well,

Anyone done a successful conversion with any other pumps ?

Hi alan- I am doing exactly what you have done- changing from fly by wire ( Epic) to Manual Pump Bosh, only with a 108 pump ( end numbers )
The epic is numbererd 1-2-3-4, on the rear pipe unions, and the Bosch is lettered a-b-c-d-, can you tell me is 1=a 2=b 3=c 4=d when arranging the pipe work- I was also lucky as I have the same unions- and intend to use the same injectors ( or at least try)

my van is the 100ps blue pump- so both the Bosch and epic are marked blue-

Anyone swopping pumps should be a bit weiry, i pulled out the dip stick to make things easier when throwing in the new Bosh pump- this fouled on the union pipes at the rear- and a combination of juggling combined with brute force, the whole thing dropped in one go, but unfortunately trapping a figure between the oil tube and the pump,(ouch- or northern similarity - transalation not neccesary) hence battered fingure, with deep gash-
( another dip stick) lol- if theres anyone out there that has a foot pedal/cable and pulley wheel for the Bosch- could you let me know Thanks Dave ps Great site this

[alanwh]

You can leave the Epic injector pipes in situ and connect them to the Bosch as they present themselves to the pump.
from memory two unions marry straight up and two need some slight bending. I think I have a set of Bosch pipes laying around somewhere if you get stuck.

[supadik]

Hi there.

I hope this thread isn't dead as I have a couple of questions, 1st did you need to make any mods for the turbo boost control and 2nd you say you adjusted the pump fuelling, could you tell me how you did this please as it would be handy to know before I do the conversion myself.

Cheers

Rich

[alanwh]

Hi Rich,

On the manual pump, there isn't a boost control. It uses a hydraulically operated torque control which is dependent on
engine speed/load governed by the internal pump pressure.
There is talk on this forum about turning up the main fuelling on the pump and then increasing the torque control on the top of the pump, by slackening off the allen bolt on the pump to cure the smoke.
I have found that the best approach is to back off the torque control by turning clockwise 2 turns the allen bolt (under the cap on top of the pump) Sounds daft I know, but tightening the screw actually slackens off the spring which restricts the mid range fuelling.
After this you can turn the main fuelling on the pump up (located on the back under a metal anti meddle cap) untill you get smoke then back off slightly. The advantage of this is that you will get more fuelling in the mid torque range where the turbo is at full boost and not have loads of smoke at low revs before the turbo has chance to spool up.
Don't worry about puffs of black smoke while throttling, this is normal as long as it clears quickly on boost.
Much will depend on your set up, rear axle ratio etc. I would spend a good day fiddling around with the pump settings and timing to get the van to drive like you want.
One thing to note is make sure you're valve clearences are spot on before you fiddle as this will have an effect on your timing adjustments.
Just a note on timing.. Some have been extremely happy with standard timing, some more happy with upto 10 deg. advance on the pump, mines about 8 deg I think.
let us know how you get on and just ask if you need any help with the set up


Al

[supadik]

Cheers for that mate.

My next question is this...I know I need a 146 or 145 pump but what vehicle and year was this pump fitted to as it's difficult talking to scrap yards when I only give them last 3 digit's of a 10 digit number, they usually hang up lol.

Are they a transit pump? if so which years where the fitted and are they pre-pats pumps as I spoke to a diesel repair shop (sewels) and they said that even the late pats pumps fitted to the later Di's would be ok for the conversion once the fuelling was adjusted to suit the turbo application???!!!???!!

Rich

[alanwh]

Hi Mate,

From late LWB minibus, though you will still need to check the numbers as they could have had other pumps fitted at some point. Ebay is probably the best bet, you can keep asking for the numbers if they don't say and they do come up now and again.
If you really get stuck let me know and I'll make some enquiries. (where in the country are you ? )

Now for the pump matching question...

Yes almost any pump will RUN with any injector (some very badly). The important thing is matching the pump to the injectors. You will notice many threads on this site about lack of performance. It's not suprising as some have had any old thing thrown on them to keep them running at some time in their past.
Each pump has a slightly different profile, amount of fuel pumped, timing of each delivery and torque curve.
That's not to say you couldn't throw a small pump on it and be quite happy. you pays the money and takes the chance

ps the 145 pats module unscrews, you can bin it and wire directly from the ignition, though you might want to put in an after market imobiliser if you do.